Hey, just started reading Big John's book Let's Get it On! and am greatly disturbed by some of the things he experienced growing up with his father.
He reveres his father, a man who went through hard times in a hard age and built himself many professional achievements, and the beginning of the book discusses the hard lessons his father taught him about life and about fighting others.
Some things would be outright condemned in today's western society, as when a bully stole John's bike and John's dad armed the little guy with a plastic bat and helped him hide behind a bush where he ambushed the bully, smashing him off the bicycle and reclaiming his machine. However, I think there is some general value to this lesson... as long as it's not one in a long series of the same lesson.
I was really, REALLY disturbed to read what happened between (11 or 12-year-old) John and his older sister. His older sister had been hitting and striking him for a very long time, as is typical when you grow up in a household which teaches might-makes-right, but John would never hit her back because he had been taught never to hit a girl. John came to hate his sister, TRULY hate her (in his own words, it was well past the typical hate a brother has for a sister, nurtured by the violence) and one day their father caught her slapping John.
John's father asked if she did that before.
John said yes.
The father took them into the garage and told John that he could hit her anywhere except the face. John writes about how he had been training wrestling at the YMCA and double-legged her to the concrete, pounding the shit out of her.
Their mother came flying from the house, hearing the shrieks and thinking that someone was dying. Their father held their mother back and let the beating go on for a few more minutes before breaking them up, leaving the girl (in John's words) curled up in the corner, sobbing helplessly.
I would love to hear from John's sister how that affected her. As far as I can tell from the book, they grew up in a might-makes-right household and was merely doing what she had been learned. She was a child with a child's logic and, to receive such a horrific punishment, must have been devastating. This is exactly what happens in early childhood to destroy people: you act the way you've been taught, you are punished severely for only following what you thought was expected of you and you are left to your own devices to make sense of it. Worlds collapse in this instance because a child's logic isn't capable of thinking, "My dad is just an imperfect human being sometimes." so children usually internalize these things as somehow being their own fault, as though their is something wrong with them or they're inferior in some way.
In really tumultuous homes the children become ultra-responsible because... well, in an average home, a dropped plate might result in a scolding, but in a savage home a dropped plate might result in beatings, family fights, smashing things, angry tempers exploding... and so the child develops a certain sort of belief in magical powers, as though if they are incautious in some way they can cause horrible problems to others. This leads to introversion and massive self-esteem problems.
The way John described his sister, curled up in a ball, sobbing, brought to mind an abused dog that can't please its owner and is thrashed regardless of what it does. The kind of damage that does to animals is nothing compared to the kind of damage that brand of helplessness does to humans.
I'm interested in reading the rest of the book and seeing what kind of person John becomes and how his ideas reflect his father's whether for good or bad.
Not true. I did read it. I'm buying that book now for sure. Thanks for the cliff notes/teaser. There is some interesting dynamics taking place there.
Um, but she was doing the abusing knowing that John wouldn't hit her back because of his morals. If she grows up with the attitude that she can hit men and they can't hit her back, someone sooner or later is going to take her to task and it could be a whole lot worse.
HexRei - Um, but she was doing the abusing knowing that John wouldn't hit her back because of his morals. If she grows up with the attitude that she can hit men and they can't hit her back, someone sooner or later is going to take her to task and it could be a whole lot worse.
Yeah, she was doing the abusing, but she probably didn't know there was anything wrong with it because that was just a way for her to express the values she had been raised with. That's why such a harsh correction is deeply traumatizing to a young mind: they thought they were following the values they had been knowingly or unknowingly taught by the parents.
Thanks for posting.
Lord Kancho -HexRei - Um, but she was doing the abusing knowing that John wouldn't hit her back because of his morals. If she grows up with the attitude that she can hit men and they can't hit her back, someone sooner or later is going to take her to task and it could be a whole lot worse.
Yeah, she was doing the abusing, but she probably didn't know there was anything wrong with it because that was just a way for her to express the values she had been raised with. That's why such a harsh correction is deeply traumatizing to a young mind: they thought they were following the values they had been knowingly or unknowingly taught by the parents.
A child doesn't consciously choose their actions, a child imprints from the world around them.
That's exactly what creates the famous "cycle of violence" which is passed from generation to generation. Our society hopes that an adult finally has the cognitive reasoning to recognize that they might be acting in hurtful ways and end the cycle, but all too often they don't.
How many people here bullied people in high school and/or college? When did you finally reach that point where you reassessed your actions, decided to treat people better and maybe even felt regret for what you had done? Mid-twenties? Late twenties? Never?
How is a child supposed to navigate this thing that most adults have trouble with?
double post
I'm not condoning it, but I'm guessing she never hit John again. 
That's exactly what creates the famous "cycle of violence" which is passed from generation to generation. Our society hopes that an adult finally has the cognitive reasoning to recognize that they might be acting in hurtful ways and end the cycle, but all too often they don't.
How many people here bullied people in high school and/or college? When did you finally reach that point where you reassessed your actions, decided to treat people better and maybe even felt regret for what you had done? Mid-twenties? Late twenties? Never?
Good thinking in there.
Cecil Peoples scored it 30-27 for the sister. 
My older sister was a goddamn nightmare to grow up with, always in trouble, flunking out of school, stealing the car at 15, stealing stuff regularly, etc.
She'd also punch and kick me, pinch, steal, lie, etc. until one day she was whipping me with a belt for no reason and I lost my shit, picked her up and put her through the living room coffee table.
No regrets here, I was a very quiet kid who avoided conflict and she took advantage for years. Still dislike her to this day.
UGCTT_I Got Fitched Up -
Not true. I did read it. I'm buying that book now for sure. Thanks for the cliff notes/teaser. There is some interesting dynamics taking place there.
This is the greatest gif I've ever seen. VTFU when I get on a computer.
voted up lord koncho
you seem like a mature man who gets it.
"A child doesn't consciously choose their actions, a child imprints from the world around them." Get the fuck out with that bullshit.
ortman166 -"A child doesn't consciously choose their actions, a child imprints from the world around them." Get the fuck out with that bullshit.
This is well documented science good sir.
Mattapooh -My older sister was a goddamn nightmare to grow up with, always in trouble, flunking out of school, stealing the car at 15, stealing stuff regularly, etc.
She'd also punch and kick me, pinch, steal, lie, etc. until one day she was whipping me with a belt for no reason and I lost my shit, picked her up and put her through the living room coffee table.
No regrets here, I was a very quiet kid who avoided conflict and she took advantage for years. Still dislike her to this day.
I read somewhere how the same thing happened to Jeffrey Dahmer...
Mattapooh -My older sister was a goddamn nightmare to grow up with, always in trouble, flunking out of school, stealing the car at 15, stealing stuff regularly, etc.
She'd also punch and kick me, pinch, steal, lie, etc. until one day she was whipping me with a belt for no reason and I lost my shit, picked her up and put her through the living room coffee table.
No regrets here, I was a very quiet kid who avoided conflict and she took advantage for years. Still dislike her to this day.
Was it because your parents believed in violence as the appropriate solution for their problems and demonstrated this in the household?
Good parenting IMO
UGCTT_I Got Fitched Up -ortman166 -"A child doesn't consciously choose their actions, a child imprints from the world around them." Get the fuck out with that bullshit.
This is well documented science good sir.
Having tacked on a Psych major for shits at the end of my undergrad, I'd be remiss to say anything from the field of psychology is well documented science, and certainly to say any theory isn't without its controversy and dissidents within the field. And although I get what you're going for, you're also simplifying it to a certain extent.
Saying a child doesn't consciously choose his actions is very silly. Now are their reactions a reflection of their upbringing, sure, but even with that theres such a variety of conflicting theories over child development. People who think only family matters, or only friends matter...etc
l8er