I'm not trying to be funny, I'm not talking about today. But in an immediate rematch, after the rope-a-dope has essentialy been burnt, could Ali beat Foreman "legit"?
What a strange world we live in that somewhere in there is a grill infomercial joke.
i really wish you were talking about today, because that would be hilarious.
from what I read Ali didn't want a rematch and then George lost to Jimmy Young so there was no need to give him a rematch at that point. personally I thing George would have destroyed Ali in a rematch.
Good question. One thing people forget about Zaire is that the ropes were ridiculously loose...i think I read in "Ali" by Tom Hauser that there were 24 foot ropes for a 20-foot ring. Basically too long. It was Ali's improvisational genius that allowed him to invent the rope-a-dope on the fly, when his corner thought he would get killed.
But the reason he invented the tactic was precisely because of how well Foreman cut off the ring in the first round and a half or so. Foreman had trained specifically to cut it off and move laterally - Ali, in one of his many biographies, wrote that he realized he was taking about six steps to every two of George's much-easier lateral shuffles. He knew Foreman would just walk him down and tire him out. So he camped on the ropes for long stretches to save his strength, which helped a lot because Foreman completely abandoned the body attack midway through the fight.
There is a specific sequence in mid-fight when Foreman unloads five punches on Ali's midsection, horrendous shots, and Ali covers up and shouts at Foreman. George cut back on the body punching because Ali asked him if that was the best he had. Ali basically got into his head and completely jedi mind-tricked him.
Take a rematch and the 75-77 version of Ali, with normal ropes. Foreman would only be better and had added a few pounds of muscle, too (he was 220 in Zaire, 224 for Lyle, I believe). He was also trained by Gil Clancy then instead of Dick Sadler, and Clancy was having him pace himself, work the jab more, not try and kill everything with one shot. Ali would probably take a terrible beating but he was virtually impossible to knock out. Pre-Manila Ali beats him, probably as George tires, as he did vs. Young. But post-Manila Ali probably gets knocked out and takes a horrible whupping.
Look at Probst dropping the knowledge on us! VTFU, you socal hater, you. :)
jaseprobst - Good question. One thing people forget about Zaire is that the ropes were ridiculously loose...i think I read in "Ali" by Tom Hauser that there were 24 foot ropes for a 20-foot ring. Basically too long. It was Ali's improvisational genius that allowed him to invent the rope-a-dope on the fly, when his corner thought he would get killed.
But the reason he invented the tactic was precisely because of how well Foreman cut off the ring in the first round and a half or so. Foreman had trained specifically to cut it off and move laterally - Ali, in one of his many biographies, wrote that he realized he was taking about six steps to every two of George's much-easier lateral shuffles. He knew Foreman would just walk him down and tire him out. So he camped on the ropes for long stretches to save his strength, which helped a lot because Foreman completely abandoned the body attack midway through the fight.
There is a specific sequence in mid-fight when Foreman unloads five punches on Ali's midsection, horrendous shots, and Ali covers up and shouts at Foreman. George cut back on the body punching because Ali asked him if that was the best he had. Ali basically got into his head and completely jedi mind-tricked him.
Take a rematch and the 75-77 version of Ali, with normal ropes. Foreman would only be better and had added a few pounds of muscle, too (he was 220 in Zaire, 224 for Lyle, I believe). He was also trained by Gil Clancy then instead of Dick Sadler, and Clancy was having him pace himself, work the jab more, not try and kill everything with one shot. Ali would probably take a terrible beating but he was virtually impossible to knock out. Pre-Manila Ali beats him, probably as George tires, as he did vs. Young. But post-Manila Ali probably gets knocked out and takes a horrible whupping.
I'm glad I opened this thread. Thanks man
jaseprobst - Good question. One thing people forget about Zaire is that the ropes were ridiculously loose...i think I read in "Ali" by Tom Hauser that there were 24 foot ropes for a 20-foot ring. Basically too long. It was Ali's improvisational genius that allowed him to invent the rope-a-dope on the fly, when his corner thought he would get killed.
But the reason he invented the tactic was precisely because of how well Foreman cut off the ring in the first round and a half or so. Foreman had trained specifically to cut it off and move laterally - Ali, in one of his many biographies, wrote that he realized he was taking about six steps to every two of George's much-easier lateral shuffles. He knew Foreman would just walk him down and tire him out. So he camped on the ropes for long stretches to save his strength, which helped a lot because Foreman completely abandoned the body attack midway through the fight.
There is a specific sequence in mid-fight when Foreman unloads five punches on Ali's midsection, horrendous shots, and Ali covers up and shouts at Foreman. George cut back on the body punching because Ali asked him if that was the best he had. Ali basically got into his head and completely jedi mind-tricked him.
Take a rematch and the 75-77 version of Ali, with normal ropes. Foreman would only be better and had added a few pounds of muscle, too (he was 220 in Zaire, 224 for Lyle, I believe). He was also trained by Gil Clancy then instead of Dick Sadler, and Clancy was having him pace himself, work the jab more, not try and kill everything with one shot. Ali would probably take a terrible beating but he was virtually impossible to knock out. Pre-Manila Ali beats him, probably as George tires, as he did vs. Young. But post-Manila Ali probably gets knocked out and takes a horrible whupping.
I'm a huge Ali fan and this was well worth the read. Thanks for taking the ime to type out your thoughts!
Foreman wins an easy decision if not a late KO/TKO. No way Ali wins a rematch with the same tactics.
sick read. vtfu brother.
I think that it would be a fucking horrorshow if they fought again. The stars aligned for Ali in Zaire and he would never be able to duplicate that victory. Too many things fell in his favor. I honestly believe that Foreman would have saved Ali by beating him so savagely that he would have retired in the mid 70s rather than the early 80s and not have taken as much cumulative damage due to the public destruction he would have been victim to. Foreman would not have suffered from motivation issues with an Ali rematch and wouldn't have underperformed.
Also: What Probst Said.
The second George Foreman was much more relaxed in the ring, which is why he didn't gas even though he weighed more. If he had that kind of mental game in his first career he would have been unstoppable.
I think he could have won a rematch
I think one of my favorite things that Foreman said (other than when he sat Lampley down a couple of times) was when asked if he had ever wanted a rematch with Ali and he said..."No, I'd fight some of the guys I beat..."
Thought that was a cool answer when it would have been so easy for him to say "Oh, yeah, I would have killed him in a rematch blah blah blah."
Garv - The second George Foreman was much more relaxed in the ring, which is why he didn't gas even though he weighed more. If he had that kind of mental game in his first career he would have been unstoppable.
Another case of youth being wasted on the young.
Franken Foreman with Old George mind and Young George body would be practically unbeatable. The only guy that I'd favor over him would be a 1966 Ali. I don't think George could get off quick enough to touch the greatest version of Ali.
Ali Killed Joe's spirit and it was no 1 shot lucky punch, he would beat him 10 outta 10! Joe litteraly quit boxing for years after.
Jetster - Ali Killed Joe's spirit and it was no 1 shot lucky punch, he would beat him 10 outta 10! Joe litteraly quit boxing for years after.
I think u mean George
Bobby Lupo -Agreed. I rate Big George right behind Ali on the all time great list.Garv - The second George Foreman was much more relaxed in the ring, which is why he didn't gas even though he weighed more. If he had that kind of mental game in his first career he would have been unstoppable.
Another case of youth being wasted on the young.
Franken Foreman with Old George mind and Young George body would be practically unbeatable. The only guy that I'd favor over him would be a 1966 Ali. I don't think George could get off quick enough to touch the greatest version of Ali.
"I honestly believe that Foreman would have saved Ali by beating him so savagely that he would have retired in the mid 70s rather than the early 80s and not have taken as much cumulative damage due to the public destruction he would have been victim to."
I just had this exact conversation with my Dad about two hours ago.
Winston Wolf -Jetster - Ali Killed Joe's spirit and it was no 1 shot lucky punch, he would beat him 10 outta 10! Joe litteraly quit boxing for years after.
I think u mean George
Lmao...ya but he also had some great battles with Joe ;)