Danaher system that good or is it training time?

mideastgrappler -
Calhoon -
Denis Kelly -

Well basically he confirmed my suspicion that a lot of the meat-head training commonly found in mma is counter productive, theres a lot of bro science with everyone just copying what they see other trainers doing rather than giving any thought to whether it is actually making any improvement to their fighter.

One very clear example of this is that he doesnt believe in padwork for developing striking skill. People can look impressive on pads but cant transfer it to sparring or fighting. So instead he focuses on very speciifc controlled sparring drills to develop skills. I love padwork, i've spent many years developing and learning my style of holding pads and have done a lot of boxing , striking etc training including training in thailand where its 90% padwork but i've always had the suspicion that padwork is hugely overrated in terms of actually making someone a better fighter.

That’s awesome. I can see what he means and  I want to hear more about his controlled sparring drills. I saw a coach one time that taught progressive sparring where at the most basic level he would teach the techniques such as basic strikes, then defenses, then drill with one guy throwing only the jab while the others just defended, once they got that they moved on to adding a counter, then they would add another strike such as the cross and if the guy threw a jab then he would defend and counter and if the guy threw a cross then he would only defend but now he had to be aware of two strikes, then he would add in a few counters to the cross that he could use, then when the guy was good at defending and countering the jab cross they would move on to a new drill where the experienced leading man would throw the jab or cross then as the student defended and countered he was allowed to defend and counter and the student would have to defend. Then when that became easy another strike is added and so on. It was a great way to teach imo. But I can’t wait to hear more of Danaher’s methods when the DVD’s come out. Thanks for sharing.

soooo......you're basically describing what a good pad holder will usually simulate when working pads?

-- "soooo......you're basically describing what a good pad holder will usually simulate when working pads?"

 

indeed....the feeder is t supposed to just be a damn heavybag or moving makiwara board

 

FatBuddha -
Josh Vogel - 
FatBuddha - Is the success of Danaher's top guys due to the fact that they're training like pro athletes and literally three to four times more than the next most dedicated competitors? (8 hours a day versus 2 to 3 hours).

You may say, everyone is training that much - but is this really true? Even the next most dedicated competitors usually have full time jobs even if that's teaching jiujitsu. I seriously doubt most competitors AVERAGE more than 2 to 3 hours of their own training time per day.

Anyone remember Lloyd Irvin's guys who he had train like 8 hours a day? Mike Fowler was tapping everyone at blue belt was literally training like 4 times as much as the guys he was facing.

Or is it different with Danaher? Is he doing things objectively different than others and has a ton of techniques and "systems" as he said that no one else is doing?

Are Danaher's guys outworking everyone or do they have a bunch of information advantages?

Iirc, LI was the first one I ever heard talking about a systems approach to training Bjj and was marketing the grappling gameplan around the time Mike Fowler was doing really well in competition. That approach seems to be behind the success of a lot of the folks who got very good very quickly at his place. It seems like Fowler and others might have been training in a way similar to how it sounds like Danahers crew is training. I have never trained with either group, so I could not compare in any detailed way their respective approaches to training. (It would be so interesting to hear about if anyone did have experience in both camps though)

Rhadi Ferguson has talked a lot about this kind of stuff as well. I get the sense, though I might be wrong, that the Mendes bros might be gifted at this kind of approach both as athletes and as Coaches. 

It all looks like it boils down roughly to some simple ideas:

-Organize your game into “high percentage” transitions, positions and finishes. The transitions always seemed to be what Irvin et al highlighted a lot in interviews and articles.

-When you can, make blindspots (effective but overlooked techniques and positions) in the art a well developed part of your game.

-Drill (in specific ways) a ton and spar often in intelligent, goal oriented ways.

-Have specific goals for everything. Your game, the training, competition seasons, strength and conditioning. 

-Understand (or have your coach understand) how to apply the strengths of the athletes game strategically in competition. 

In short, I think they approach Bjj like professional Football, Basketball, Olympic athletes, and other high level athletes and coaches approach their sport. They don’t just train “hard” more than anyone else, they train in relatively organized ways with Coaches who guide the training to make sure they are improving in measurable steps toward specific goals and who make sure they aren’t wasting valuable training time by doing things which don’t directly improve the athletes performance. 


great post!

Thanks man!

mideastgrappler - 
Calhoon -
Denis Kelly -

Well basically he confirmed my suspicion that a lot of the meat-head training commonly found in mma is counter productive, theres a lot of bro science with everyone just copying what they see other trainers doing rather than giving any thought to whether it is actually making any improvement to their fighter.

One very clear example of this is that he doesnt believe in padwork for developing striking skill. People can look impressive on pads but cant transfer it to sparring or fighting. So instead he focuses on very speciifc controlled sparring drills to develop skills. I love padwork, i've spent many years developing and learning my style of holding pads and have done a lot of boxing , striking etc training including training in thailand where its 90% padwork but i've always had the suspicion that padwork is hugely overrated in terms of actually making someone a better fighter.

That’s awesome. I can see what he means and  I want to hear more about his controlled sparring drills. I saw a coach one time that taught progressive sparring where at the most basic level he would teach the techniques such as basic strikes, then defenses, then drill with one guy throwing only the jab while the others just defended, once they got that they moved on to adding a counter, then they would add another strike such as the cross and if the guy threw a jab then he would defend and counter and if the guy threw a cross then he would only defend but now he had to be aware of two strikes, then he would add in a few counters to the cross that he could use, then when the guy was good at defending and countering the jab cross they would move on to a new drill where the experienced leading man would throw the jab or cross then as the student defended and countered he was allowed to defend and counter and the student would have to defend. Then when that became easy another strike is added and so on. It was a great way to teach imo. But I can’t wait to hear more of Danaher’s methods when the DVD’s come out. Thanks for sharing.

soooo......you're basically describing what a good pad holder will usually simulate when working pads?


Actually that is the issue, there aren't a lot of good pad holders. If anything a proper pad holder can be worth their weight in gold as they are rare as shit these days. It degenerates into people w bad pad holding skills or at best people who come up w retarded count combos that don't teach realistic timing.

The argument is really what is your definition of a good padholder. I've seen many padholders who are considered 'good because they make their student look and feel good while hitting the pads by moving the pads onto punches or making them perform impressive prearranged combinations. This time could be better spent fixing up fundamental flaws in the fighters punching technique and defense which although not as much fun or as impressive looking on Instagram videos will be more beneficial in the fighters long term development and career. Ronda Rousey is one of the best examples of this. 

I am doing BJJ for 24 years and Danahers DVDs changed me a lot. Every system changed me, made me better.

My old teacher Roy Harris was a lot like Danaher, but he choose not to give away his secrets. Danaher is more open so and it is just amazing what his stuff can do.....

Zero1 - I am doing BJJ for 24 years and Danahers DVDs changed me a lot. Every system changed me, made me better.

My old teacher Roy Harris was a lot like Danaher, but he choose not to give away his secrets. Danaher is more open so and it is just amazing what his stuff can do.....

Wow I’m really surprised to hear that Roy Harris held back into- especially with his background. 

Don´t get me wrong Roy is amazing but when you watch his DVDs it is just a shell of what he really knows and how he teach seminars.

When Roy taught me there where always lightbulbs going on. I was like: Why could I not figure this stuff out.:-)

Now with Danaher it is the same:-)

I really feel there are a lot of similarities between the two....

Danaher himself is an anomaly. The only example of someone who's become a true master, at a relative late age, without competiting.

My friend who's a Danaher black belt told me John could demo the entire kodokan judo throwing curriculum at live speed, one throw after the other, flawlessly. This is without having had any formal judo instruction.

madness.

 

 

 

Daniël Bertina - 

Danaher himself is an anomaly. The only example of someone who's become a true master, at a relative late age, without competiting.

My friend who's a Danaher black belt told me John could demo the entire kodokan judo throwing curriculum at live speed, one throw after the other, flawlessly. This is without having had any formal judo instruction.

madness.

 

 

 


That's really crazy but I believe it because Dave Camarillo said John has some of the crispiest Judo he's ever seen.

Wonder what Travis Stephens would say about John's judo? Not that Camarillo wouldn't know, obviously super legit and accomplished, but not an olympic medalist.

CJJScout - Wonder what Travis Stephens would say about John's judo? Not that Camarillo wouldn't know, obviously super legit and accomplished, but not an olympic medalist.

In a recent interview someone asked Travis about which bjj guys impressed him with their standup skills. 

His answer :”nobody”

so there’s that.

think it was on a reddit AMA sctually

As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

JD just mentioned on his armbar video today that a big part of his system is finding a lot of details for smaller movements (ie. submissions) instead of a few details for larger movements. I think there's something to be said for looking at very tiny movements and small ranges of motion and then applying it to broader parts of your game.

Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming's material?

FatBuddha -
Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming's material?

Honestly at this point there's so much good information available for leglocks you have alot of options and it really depends on where you'd like to start first.  I know right now heel hooks are the big craze, but there were some nasty straight ankle finishes at trials recently, and it would really be great to have a well rounded leg game.

Personally i'd advise starting out with Reilly Bodycomb (dvds and grapplers guide) and Scott Sonnon.  Reilly for the straight ankle, and you'll get a ton from Sonnon, as that's where the majority of Danaher's leglock stuff comes from (with a few subtle differences here and there, but not many).  Reilly will get you functional on alot of top and bottom entries and teach you how to get on a leg, and some really nice "pre-entanglements" (self coined term there).

Once you've gone through that material i'd say visit Ryan Halls stuff to fill out any conceptual gaps that are there (plus more slick entries and drills), and with those out of the way, go to Danaher.  Danaher will add more conceptual understanding and give a bit of extra insight to reinforce what you've learned earlier.  Finally i'd say hit up Craig Jones for some drills to put everything you've learned to use (dvds and grapplers guide), and then Cummings to learn how to defend it all.

Outside of those, there are some other really good sets out there that you can check out, but that's a great way to get started.

FatBuddha - 
Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming's material?

Jones has the best set for developing a powerful inside heel hook game quickly. Cummings has the best set once you're comfortable with heel hooks in terms of the nitty gritty details on what it takes to best defend them and then to finish people that know those good defenses.

Danaher probably has the best set in terms of showing the big picture of modern leg locks.

Ryan Hall's set is still the best resource I've seen on 50/50 for no-gi and heel hooks, although keep in mind the exact heel hook finishing mechanics are outdated. But that doesn't change any of the effectiveness of what's shown on there.

Bodycomb also has a ton of great material and is a great resource for non heel hook stuff as well. A month of Braulio Estima's website (estimainaction.com is also great for a well rounded leg lock game (including the modern heel hook style).

Toilet Steak™ - 
FatBuddha -
Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming's material?

Honestly at this point there's so much good information available for leglocks you have alot of options and it really depends on where you'd like to start first.  I know right now heel hooks are the big craze, but there were some nasty straight ankle finishes at trials recently, and it would really be great to have a well rounded leg game.

Personally i'd advise starting out with Reilly Bodycomb (dvds and grapplers guide) and Scott Sonnon.  Reilly for the straight ankle, and you'll get a ton from Sonnon, as that's where the majority of Danaher's leglock stuff comes from (with a few subtle differences here and there, but not many).  Reilly will get you functional on alot of top and bottom entries and teach you how to get on a leg, and some really nice "pre-entanglements" (self coined term there).

Once you've gone through that material i'd say visit Ryan Halls stuff to fill out any conceptual gaps that are there (plus more slick entries and drills), and with those out of the way, go to Danaher.  Danaher will add more conceptual understanding and give a bit of extra insight to reinforce what you've learned earlier.  Finally i'd say hit up Craig Jones for some drills to put everything you've learned to use (dvds and grapplers guide), and then Cummings to learn how to defend it all.

Outside of those, there are some other really good sets out there that you can check out, but that's a great way to get started.


big thanks for your break down! much appreciated.

mata_leaos - 
FatBuddha - 
Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I've noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I'm going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming's material?

Jones has the best set for developing a powerful inside heel hook game quickly. Cummings has the best set once you're comfortable with heel hooks in terms of the nitty gritty details on what it takes to best defend them and then to finish people that know those good defenses.

Danaher probably has the best set in terms of showing the big picture of modern leg locks.

Ryan Hall's set is still the best resource I've seen on 50/50 for no-gi and heel hooks, although keep in mind the exact heel hook finishing mechanics are outdated. But that doesn't change any of the effectiveness of what's shown on there.

Bodycomb also has a ton of great material and is a great resource for non heel hook stuff as well. A month of Braulio Estima's website (estimainaction.com is also great for a well rounded leg lock game (including the modern heel hook style).

Thanks very much!

Great discussion.

I’d add one more resource, Kesting’s High percentage leglocks DVD. They can give you the foundation you most certainly need.

FatBuddha -
Toilet Steak™ - 
FatBuddha -
Jody - As someone who has ankle locked and heel hooked his way to a black belt, I can tell you that Danaher's system is something else. For me, it is the emphasis of biting down and isolating the leg in a way that immobilizes the leg so much that ripping the leg across one's chest is unnecessary.

As I have been trying to implement his concepts (along with Ryan Hall and Craig Jones), I’ve noticed that, more and more, all I have to do is bite down and bridge my hips, as if I’m going for a kneebar or armbar, and I finish the heel hook.

The control works great for straight ankle locks and knee bars, too. The man knows what he is talking about. The system works.

What would you suggest as a progression of DVDS from those sources you mentioned (Danaher, Ryan Hall, Craig Jones) to watch first, second, etc? Also how about Eddie Cumming’s material?

Honestly at this point there’s so much good information available for leglocks you have alot of options and it really depends on where you’d like to start first.  I know right now heel hooks are the big craze, but there were some nasty straight ankle finishes at trials recently, and it would really be great to have a well rounded leg game.

Personally i’d advise starting out with Reilly Bodycomb (dvds and grapplers guide) and Scott Sonnon.  Reilly for the straight ankle, and you’ll get a ton from Sonnon, as that’s where the majority of Danaher’s leglock stuff comes from (with a few subtle differences here and there, but not many).  Reilly will get you functional on alot of top and bottom entries and teach you how to get on a leg, and some really nice "pre-entanglements" (self coined term there).

Once you’ve gone through that material i’d say visit Ryan Halls stuff to fill out any conceptual gaps that are there (plus more slick entries and drills), and with those out of the way, go to Danaher.  Danaher will add more conceptual understanding and give a bit of extra insight to reinforce what you’ve learned earlier.  Finally i’d say hit up Craig Jones for some drills to put everything you’ve learned to use (dvds and grapplers guide), and then Cummings to learn how to defend it all.

Outside of those, there are some other really good sets out there that you can check out, but that’s a great way to get started.

big thanks for your break down! much appreciated.

Ive studied sonnens dvd. Trained with several of danahers guys, reilly and the haydens.

Having to do it all over again I wouldnt study any of Reillys or sonnens stuff. 

I would just stick with Danahers DVDs, any seminars or privates you can get with them and watching tape of them. fwiw