Anybody else see this? My GF got it for me for X-Mas. Some neat set-ups for the Kimura and Triangle. He also does something called the DLR Guard although I couldn't quite figure it out.
Any other Lister videos out there worth watching?
TTT
KimuraKing, can you give me a little bit more detail on the types of setups for the triange on this dvd (are they all from a tight closed guard)? Also, do you know where your girlfriend bought it (because I might want to get that dvd myself)?
Thanks
awesome dvd, reminds me more of a private lesson, then your average instructional dvd. He goes over some techniques you already know but gives you lots of helpful pointers to expand your game. I think it's a great dvd if you've already had atleast 4-6 months training. Goes over some cool stuff with the kimura, triangle, and omaplata if I remember correctly, its' been a little while since I watched it. It's also got some footage of him winning a tourney in sweden or norway, I beleive.
You can buy it on his website for $29:
www.deanlister.com
http://www.deanlister.com/store.php
QUOTE: "If you open your legs like that and DON'T post on the hip, what stops him from coming around?"
Interesting point kbits. I think what stops him (in this case) elevating and passing around, is the control of the guy's head (with the hook of your leg), and the control's the guy's elbow. I find that elbow control is just as important as any "90 degree" turn/cut.
I've been looking into the triangle a lot - the way it's done in competition is often different to the way it's taught. This may be a similar case.
I wish there was a video of something like a hundred triangles being don in competition-that would be very helpful.
MMD,
You can see quite a few Mundial/Pan-Am triangles along with their setups on Rigan Machado's DVD. The tail end (maybe 20 minutes worth) has a good deal of comp footage to study.
Further to my post - as I mentioned, people do the triangle differently in competition as they 'normally' do in technique explainations and even in practice.
For example: From what I've seen studying the footage on that DVD, clips of Baret Yoshida, Dean Lister, Evan Tanner, Sim Go of Cobra Kai, and heaps of other matches in Mundial/Pam-Am competition matches, the triangle choke, the "cut" (angular placement) is something that doesn't exactly occur as it does in practice.
Also, the elbow control is something that isn't always stressed in technique practice, what's stressed more is the angulation. Sure, that's important, but if the elbow of the trapped arm pops out, then the triangle falls a part. Elbow control is the first thing you notice in comp footage. Once you control the elbow, you control the shoulder and along with leg placement (notice, not always body AND leg placement), you control the head and spine, and thereby controlling the opponent's hips and movement.
Rarely is this matter discussed - without the arm control, the head and spine control don't come into place, in my humble opinion.
scurries away, awaiting flaming from much larger 250lb'ers who know better
-Charles
To be honest, the arm-under-leg is great, but it's something that presents itself. Let me explain: sometimes going for the angulation at the wrong time by diving for the arm-under-leg, will allow a resisting opponent to pop open the triangle of your legs. That's to say that when I've seen competitors do the triangle, they normally lock up the triangle, THEN go for the leg. Often they elevate their hips and, when they drop, create some angulation to help them lock up the triangle. So it's not the usual foot-in-the-hip-and-turn.
Sounds stupid, but SO MUCH is going on with the triangle that shit happens. Think about how much is going on: control of the opponent's numerous joints and balance, and co-ordination of your own pulling, pushing and interlocking motions. AND it all happens at different phases too when you think about it - setup, intermediate entry, final lockdown. As I said though, if it's there, then take it; sometimes if it's slightly off time, and if you're short like me, the opponent will try and pass under the hooking leg, often leading to partial stacking. I know what people say "If you've got the cut, he can't do anything", but it's not like that in reality. That's my opinion anyway.
I've tried from Mission Control - I only usually get to crossing my legs trapping his arm/head. I don't normally get to the point where I get to lock up the triangle proper.
One reason I find is that doing rubber guard, the guy is higher up on your chest. In order to do the triangle, you need his head to be at the imaginery vertical plane that is your hips (ideally). His head is beyond that point when playing rubber guard, and is around the chest/stomach area. Because I've got short legs (I'm 5'6"), it's hard to lock up from there. That's one hey difference when doing setups from open guard, to an ultra-closed guard like rubber guard.
This is where the 'cut' would be ideal, but it's so hard to do in practice, with the rubber guard and regular co-ordination for the triangle lock-up.
I guess there are some key circumstances and tricks I'm yet to discover when trying to lock up the triangle via rubber guard. I reckon at the beginner rubber guard level I'm at, the opponent will need to make a big boo-boo and back out, either standing or other, creating the optimum distance for me. Circumstance can be of help for sure, but it's more likely I haven't picked up on the fine motor details watching comp footage.
I got to say though, I will study up more on Eddie Bravo's latest book to see. Great Dean Lister clip floating around from when he submitted Alessio Sakara - awesome clip being one of the best expressions of rubber guard principles in MMA.
I think you guys are making this much more complicated and complex than it really is.
First off the reason why there is a difference between the way a technique is demostrated or taught and the way it is actually done by "individuals" in a real situation is very logical.
Demostration form is meant to illustrate the basic principle, basic body mechanics (how to position your body) and basic body movements (how you move your body) as they relate to a given technique or skill. Demostration form is suppose to be somewhat general since it is meant to "demostrate" and "explain" a technique to a broad audience, all who may different in regards to size, shape, etc.
Once a student gets a grip on the basics of a technique in regards to principle, body position and movement than the student can ADJUST and ADAPT the technique to his or her own body type, shape, size etc.
Everyone is DIFFERENT. Some people have longer legs than others, some have shorter legs. Some have lobger torsos, some have shorter. I can go on and on about the difference. What may be a problem for one person may not necessarily be a problem gor a another because of different body types, sizes etc.
SO every person is going to have to ADJUST a technique like the triangle to suit their body. This is why their is a difference of execution of a technique (sometimes very great other times only slight) like the triangle among Bjj players.
The BEST way to really develop a triangle that SUITS you is to simply practice and experiment with it. You might actually find that you might have to actually perform the triangle differently on different people (again because of body differences, On one person you may have to create a greater angle because they have a bigger upper body where as on another person you may not have to create as great of an angle because they have a much smaller upper body).
Studying how other people do it is good BUT you want to do it in a way that SUITS you and the only way to really do that is to get in touch with your own body and PRACTICE. You should DISCOVER for yourself what works for you!
kbits, what I see is that when people do triangles in competitons they angulate after they elevate their hips (i.e. when their hips drop). They often do this by rotating their hips slightly toward the side of the cutting leg.
This creates a bit of the traditional leg-on-hip-turn, without doing the leg-on-hip. It's a lot quicker, and allows you a slight angle to lock up the triangle to then adjust. Call it the "hip-elevation-and-side-to-side" for simplicity, desciribing the elevation and the hip shift during the phase where the hips drop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_oGJsdSQ
Take a look at Ryan Hall's commentary. Basically, the sequence goes
(1) hip-elevation-and-side-to-side-shift (very slight, but note in the first match, he elevates his hips, then when he dips, he moves his hips slightly side-to-side),
(2) triangle lock up (easier because of (1)) and
(3) arm-under angulation to finish.
In class it's normally taught as (1), (3) and (2). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7N_
What I've seen though is that cometitors leave the rest of their upper body in place, and just 'throw' their hips out (for want of a better expression). For example: if I'm doing the triangle choke with my left leg cutting the guy's neck, I'd rotate my hips/lower back toward my left hip, and throw my butt out to the right (slightly). This creates a quick, and slight angulation, enough to begin locking more the triangle.
Take a look at another Ryan Hall clip (see second match from this link, where he locks up the triangle, and his hips are slightly turning toward the cutting leg side when he's hanging there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbUcV5eba44 )
In comp footage, guys pop in and back out, then do the traditional "grab-the-shin", THEN "arm-under-leg-adjustment". It may not be 'technically' correct, but I guess we're talking about observations in competition here and if I had to choose one to follow over another...
As far as the footage, I'd highly recommend the Rigan Machado DVD/Book. It's a great reference.
By the way - Happy New Year!
awaits flaming from more advanced students
m.g.,
I think you may very well be right. It's a good point you raise.
-Charles
ps I gotta say that your posts are amongst the most respected in my book. I actually gain a lot of in sight. For example your post on grades and skill levels was very interesting.
Kbit:
You said: "'lock on triangle then adjust' is entirely different than 'adjust, then lock on triangle'. I think its valid to see how those that do this - do it - and see how and if it can be adapted."
What!?
Stop being so literal. You know what I mean or at least you should know. I am not talking about adjusting in that way. I am smply saying you should discover for yourself how to best perform the triangle becaose you, more than anyone else, should know your own body.
Furthermore I didn't say you shouldn't see how others perform the triangle; watching others is a good thing, particularly those who have the same body type you may have. BUT you shouldn't "rely" on someone elses experience to fill what's missing in your own epxerience. The very people you're watching actually went through the provess of adjust and adapting the triangle to their own body. In other words they personalized and tailored it to THEIR body. They learned what works for them. So how they do it fits them more than it fits anyone else including you. You can't "wear" someone elses shoes or pants. They won't fit you like it fits them. If you want a "custom fit" in regards to the triangle then you need to do what they did and PRACTICE and DISCOVER what works for you.
Practice different entries, different positions, different combinations, different angles etc and FIND the one that FITS you!
Incidently I don't complicate things...I simplify them. You all should knoo that by now... :)
Anyone have a link to Dean Lister vs. Sakara where he does the intricate setup to triangle finish? I found it on Youtube or some video clip site and Zuffa had it removed. I don't want to wait for UFC 60 DVD to come out to review it. Anyone have a site to see the submission?
Thanks.
kingbongg,
It's an awesome clip isn't it? It's so mad.
If you've not seen it guys, and you're familiar with Eddie Bravo Rubber Guard terminology, it seems like Dean Lister goes for London, then pops into a striangle by controlling the far arm (as Ryan Hall would say a "Tap Through Triangle"). Then he gable grips from memory, and does such a fantastic job. It was like Royce in UFC all over!
-Charles
kbits and charles --great discussion. Please keep it going.
ttt
I feel bad for hijacking someone else's thread.
kbits, my e-mail address is "charles bp choi@ xhotmailx.com" [Remove x's and spaces]. Let's chat there.
[edit to include]
m.g., It's all good man seriously - would love to run some things by you and get your advice, can you e-mail me too?
kbits,
Oops...my bad I am sorry that you and your friend charles were having a "private" conversation on a "public" thread.
My initial post is adding to the topic at hand considering this thread was "originally" about Dean Lister's DVD and how one can "learn" various setups etc from that DVD. My comments dealt with how I felt some of you seem to be making the whole process of learning (specifically from this DVD and in general) harder than it really is.
m.g., I've just re-read my posts, and read your latest post. I might be misreading, but have I done something to offend you bro?
charles, don't stress it, M.g. is on a personal crusade to get people to stop overthinking BJJ (in a lot of cases I think he has a point!).
As for the Dean Lister DVD. I have it and think it is great, compared to a lot of instructionals it doesn't show that many techniques however he does give some great general concepts and some ideas that really got me experimenting.
One thing I would say is that I would like to see more from him in terms of something covering his guard techniques in more detail.