definition of a fake BJJ gym?

Underground BJJ Ground
21

Spc Lee Lohff - Facilities run by blue belts who got their belt via the Gracie Academy online course. There is one in Sioux City, and every single blue there is beyond awful. They have the largest student body of any place in that town, and there is a solid Romolo Barral purple in Sioux City. He has, maybe, 10-15 students. It is obscene. I was tempted to dojo storm at one time, but what is the point? There is nothing that can shake these folks from their delusion of bjj competency.

I made an account to comment on another thread, but I feel like I need to clarify. This is my school. We are teaching Gracie Combatives and we are a Gracie Certified Training Center (www.GracieAcademy.com). I trained under a questionable instructor for about 5 years, before joining the Gracies. I did earn my blue belt via the online course. However, I tested in front of Rorion, Ryron, Rener and other Gracie Black Belts at the academy in Torrence for the right to teach the Combatives (white belt) curriculum. Neither I nor our students have ever claimed to be anything more than blue belts. We do not claim to be better than any other blue belts and acknowledge that we progress at a slower pace than students at a traditional school. All of the students understand my background. We all enjoy JJ and wanted to continue learning. We are all aware of the other instructor in town and the students probably each have their own reasons for choosing our school.

22

Rstrength - 
Spc Lee Lohff - Facilities run by blue belts who got their belt via the Gracie Academy online course. There is one in Sioux City, and every single blue there is beyond awful. They have the largest student body of any place in that town, and there is a solid Romolo Barral purple in Sioux City. He has, maybe, 10-15 students. It is obscene. I was tempted to dojo storm at one time, but what is the point? There is nothing that can shake these folks from their delusion of bjj competency.

I made an account to comment on another thread, but I feel like I need to clarify. This is my school. We are teaching Gracie Combatives and we are a Gracie Certified Training Center (www.GracieAcademy.com). I trained under a questionable instructor for about 5 years, before joining the Gracies. I did earn my blue belt via the online course. However, I tested in front of Rorion, Ryron, Rener and other Gracie Black Belts at the academy in Torrence for the right to teach the Combatives (white belt) curriculum. Neither I nor our students have ever claimed to be anything more than blue belts. We do not claim to be better than any other blue belts and acknowledge that we progress at a slower pace than students at a traditional school. All of the students understand my background. We all enjoy JJ and wanted to continue learning. We are all aware of the other instructor in town and the students probably each have their own reasons for choosing our school.

So what do you guys charge per month, for training?

23

^^^ this just got interesting Phone Post 3.0

24

And it begins Phone Post 3.0

25

Lol Josh I spent a lot of time talking shit in a public forum about fakes in my area and it would have cost me a promotion if I didn't cool it. Not many people want to put themselves out there as a "hater" (I put that word in quotes cause it is as bullshit as calling Edward Snowden a traitor) because of what it can co$t them in the public's eye.

There are three gyms in my area with instructors that just aren't qualified to teach someone to tie their shoes much less teach BJJ and you are correct it will only get worse.

I called one guy out and then he calls me on the phone the next day to bitch at me... Apparently the phone call didn't go his way because after that the rumor was spread that he cornered me in a bathroom and punked me out at a MMA show I didn't even attend lol.

Game recognize game and a large chunk of the community know who the unfamiliars are. I compete when I can, they don't. I produce knowledgable students/winners, they don't. I just throw my hands up in the air at this point.

I'd sell my soul to Satan to get out of this BJJ scene and relocate to any number of spots where I know a dozen dudes at any gym could take me to the woodshed daily. Phone Post 3.0

26

in

27

if you catch your instructor eating hot chips

28
Josh Mancuso - 
checkuroil - I put some stuff up last week. It caused me nothing but grief. Phone Post 3.0

Been there too. Thats why I don't care anymore.

No one stands together and no one with large credibility will call out the sellout "legends" openly. So you get guys like you and I who get nothing but greif for trying to keep the purity out there. So all in all, in my experience. We are better off saying nothing and just letting it happen.

 

 

 

I hear what you guys are saying. I've had the same experience.

Even when you are 100% correct (as CUO was), people associated with these guys will feel very threatened and attack you. Who wants to put themselves out there for that? Years ago, I went through a period of getting calls at MY WORK. That's not cool. I started to question myself: am I really the a-hole here? Should I just shut up?

The average Blue Belt under Professor_____________(fill in the blank) usually draws a lot of pride being associated with a "real Brazilan Master" or whatever. It becomes a part of the student's identity. Sometimes these are people without much of an identity of their own; without much going on in their own lives. If you threaten that, it can create problems for you. Also, many students ligitimately don't know their teacher/ association head sells belts. Others are just in plain denial.

The issue opens a can of worms most honest practitioners simply just don't want to bother with. I don't blame them. I definitly made an enemy of two back in the day posting info about a well known guy I KNOW was selling BBs to  a couple frauds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

29

I think it comes down to anyone that misrepresents themselves. That CTC guy seems like he is honest and up front about everything so I don't see that as being fake. It is pretty easy to do some research, visit some schools, and find the best place to train for YOU. Being able to dojo storm a school and tap the instructor doesn't really have any bearing on the quality of that school.

30

 

 

One other issue I realized with calling out "legit "guys who sell belts is that they usually have some students who are legit and earned their ranks. Some of those guys are possibly black belts themselves, some even with their own schools. When you question the legitimacy of ranks from their instructor, you are hurting them --even though they themselves did nothing wrong. That sucks. That's something I realized years ago when I got into it on this forum about a local SoCal instructor who absolutely sells belts AND has legit students.

31

Also, people who are pathological will go to great lengths to keep the facade they created, greater lengths than we are willing to go to uncover them. They make it so unpalatable that the truth is easier hidden than revealed.

Some will even contact your new gi instructor to try and get you in trouble Phone Post 3.0

32

Lang Phone Post 3.0

33

checkuroil - Also, people who are pathological will go to great lengths to keep the facade they created, greater lengths than we are willing to go to uncover them. They make it so unpalatable that the truth is easier hidden than revealed.

Some will even contact your new gi instructor to try and get you in trouble Phone Post 3.0


Well said.



--and did that m-fer do that to YOU...?? lol Jesus, what a tool he is. At least he's getting well know as a joke.



 



 

34

Theres a guy in the uk who caused a stir recently as the scene in the uk is relatively small but high quality and everyone knows each other. I mean you have guys like roger and braulio/victor based here.

So this daft tma school started advertising "the only brazilian black belt in coventry" bearing in mind coventry is 40mins from braulios club. This guys was claiming a massive record in mma, k1 and bjj. Videos emerged of him rolling with a clueless whitebelt in speedoes looking anything but black belt level

When people asked the club what his lineage was they closed shop, "we dont believe in lineages etc we just know leo is legit etc". Meanwhile the fraud had been teaching kids and grading folk

This went on for a while and eventually died down after they agreed to stop advertising bjj classes. Few months later he reappeared having got some dlr black belt in brazil to legitimise him with a new story that he was given his black 6mths earlier.

Everyone pointed out he had been living in the uk for 6 yrs and noone had ever heard of him and had been claiming a black as far back as when he first arrived (in an old cached website).

They just closed shop again after that Phone Post 3.0

35

Rstrength - 
Spc Lee Lohff - Facilities run by blue belts who got their belt via the Gracie Academy online course. There is one in Sioux City, and every single blue there is beyond awful. They have the largest student body of any place in that town, and there is a solid Romolo Barral purple in Sioux City. He has, maybe, 10-15 students. It is obscene. I was tempted to dojo storm at one time, but what is the point? There is nothing that can shake these folks from their delusion of bjj competency.

I made an account to comment on another thread, but I feel like I need to clarify. This is my school. We are teaching Gracie Combatives and we are a Gracie Certified Training Center (www.GracieAcademy.com). I trained under a questionable instructor for about 5 years, before joining the Gracies. I did earn my blue belt via the online course. However, I tested in front of Rorion, Ryron, Rener and other Gracie Black Belts at the academy in Torrence for the right to teach the Combatives (white belt) curriculum. Neither I nor our students have ever claimed to be anything more than blue belts. We do not claim to be better than any other blue belts and acknowledge that we progress at a slower pace than students at a traditional school. All of the students understand my background. We all enjoy JJ and wanted to continue learning. We are all aware of the other instructor in town and the students probably each have their own reasons for choosing our school.

Do you think you are competent enough to teach people? What do you think the reasons are for people coming to you and not Perrin (sp?). Do you feel running your own BJJ school advances or hinders the advancement of bjj as an effective martial arts that has higher quality controls than other martial arts?

36

Fear not, Chicken Little black belts, I don't think the sky is falling quite as quickly as you guys seem to think. 

Of course, I've only been involved in BJJ for about 4 years so I lack your long term observation . . . but I had over 10 years of TMA experience beforehand that I believe provided just about all the perspective I need on this issue.

Are there more "fakes" popping up in BJJ today than there were 10 years ago?  Almost certainly.  I wasn't there 10 years ago, but I do know that popularity and money bring fakers.  I work in my State's Department of Justice, and we have a saying--"Today's headlines are tomorrow's scams." 

And in the TMA world, there was absolutely nothing to stop this.  Grand Master What's-his-Name would design some super chop socky system and promote some black belts, and as those black belts started making black belts, it would start to build exponentially.  After a few decades, you'd inevitably start getting all sorts of disputes over who's teaching the "real" chop socky system, whether one of them is in fact a "better" chop socky system, whether one of them is being shunned for political reasons, whether one of them "sold out," whether this "association" of chop socky practitioners is the "real" core of the system, etc. etc.  Everyone develops a rationale for why their particular chop socky is the super bestest. 

It goes on and on, the debates are endless, and many practitioners lament that the art is being lost or corrupted, just as is being said here.  And you're all right to some extent--this can and will happen in the BJJ world.  You're seeing it now. 

But . . . BJJ has a built-in limiter that TMAs in the modern era never did.  BJJ is a combat sport.  A significant core of BJJ places great value on live in-class training as well as competition.  At any given moment, all of us could look to the results at major international tournaments and know--to an absolute certainty--who the best in the world REALLY are.  Local tournaments can function similarly on the local level.

So this means that while you'll no doubt get the march of frauds, fakers, and their disciples, you'll never actually lose that CORE group.  The ever-evolving center of BJJ who really make stuff work on the mat and seek to filter folks into MMA, will always be there.  And the frauds, fakers, and their disciples will always avoid that core like the plague. 

That doesn't mean you won't get in disputes with fakers, and it doesn't mean that you won't tragically see clueless students wasting precious years learning from fakers. But it does mean that if you're responsible enough to know what you're looking for, you will always be able to find "real" BJJ.  And that's really all any of us--or potential future students--need. 

37

There are a growing number of schools who do not send their students to sport competitions because it is not for "the street." Sounds awfully similar to the TMA guys who refused to compete because their techniques were too deadly. BJJ is being diluted, and these "chicken little" black belts are attempting to focus on it to prevent it from getting out of hand. Good for them for doing it.

38

Spc Lee Lohff - There are a growing number of schools who do not send their students to sport competitions because it is not for "the street." Sounds awfully similar to the TMA guys who refused to compete because their techniques were too deadly. BJJ is being diluted, and these "chicken little" black belts are attempting to focus on it to prevent it from getting out of hand. Good for them for doing it.
Absolutely--I don't disagree.

My point isn't that what you're describing isn't happening or that "real" black belts shouldn't advocate against it, but rather that the combat sport aspect of BJJ will naturally operate to prevent what is happening from subsuming the art as a whole.

I don't think we'll ever get to the point where BJJ is just another TMA. Where the entire practitionership consists of out of shape "masters" and clueless students arguing over esoteric concepts that nobody actually uses in any functional way.

We might end up with a subset of purported "street BJJ" experts who end up doing that, but there will always be the hard nosed core made up of folks like those on this thread who actually engage on the mat. They will always have the "real" BJJ. And thus, somebody who wants "real" BJJ is going to be able to find it if they look hard enough.

It doesn't stop the frauds, but it stops them from taking over completely. That is a HUGE advantage possessed by BJJ that fights against what happens naturally in the TMA world, and that's a great thing. Phone Post 3.0

39

MTH - 
Spc Lee Lohff - There are a growing number of schools who do not send their students to sport competitions because it is not for "the street." Sounds awfully similar to the TMA guys who refused to compete because their techniques were too deadly. BJJ is being diluted, and these "chicken little" black belts are attempting to focus on it to prevent it from getting out of hand. Good for them for doing it.
Absolutely--I don't disagree.

My point isn't that what you're describing isn't happening or that "real" black belts shouldn't advocate against it, but rather that the combat sport aspect of BJJ will naturally operate to prevent what is happening from subsuming the art as a whole.

I don't think we'll ever get to the point where BJJ is just another TMA. Where the entire practitionership consists of out of shape "masters" and clueless students arguing over esoteric concepts that nobody actually uses in any functional way.

We might end up with a subset of purported "street BJJ" experts who end up doing that, but there will always be the hard nosed core made up of folks like those on this thread who actually engage on the mat. They will always have the "real" BJJ. And thus, somebody who wants "real" BJJ is going to be able to find it if they look hard enough.

It doesn't stop the frauds, but it stops them from taking over completely. That is a HUGE advantage possessed by BJJ that fights against what happens naturally in the TMA world, and that's a great thing. Phone Post 3.0

Ah, I see your point. Yeah, I agree. So long as people continue to push competition as a necessary part of BJJ, at least some control will remain. I think encouraging all schools, even those made for "teh street," to participate in competitions will help them find the light. Just don't call it "keeping it playful" if you get dominated.

40

Correct above. I saw many older technical Black belts in brazil who were not active competitors & would get roughed up by the full time competitor blue belts who were competing every week, The black belts would just come in to train & roll but not take it too seriously because they obviously had jobs, families etc now unlike the 20 year old blue belt competitors.That was in 2005 so I imagine theres even more of them now.