Devine intervention

Here's a true story that's always troubled me.

In the earliest stages of WWII, a group of high ranking German officials realized that Hitler was dangerous, crazy, inhumane, etc., and set out to undermine him. A whole network of officials leaked info to the Allies, screwed up German intelligence, etc.

And....on one occasion quite early on, they made an attempt on Hitler's life. When he boarded a small plane, they put a bomb on board with a slow burning fuse.

Unfortunately, the plane ran into clouds and had to fly above them----the decreased oxygen snuffed out the fuse. So, the war went on, millions died, etc. This was all prior to Pearl, Normandy, Bastogne, etc.

I don't think that any human with the gift of perfect forsight would have intervened against hitler's assasination. It's always troubled me that the elements did. Why would God allow something like that? It perplexes me.

So..........for those of you who really do believe that God purposely sent a blood clot to A. Sharon's brain, do you also believe that God sent clouds to save Hitler's life?

I don't see how you could support one and not the other.

Yes God sent Hitler clouds to save him so WW2 happenes so Israel is formed so Sharon can lead it and then have a blood clot.

For that matter, how is it that the two planes that struck the two towers on 9/11 BOTH managed to do so in such a perfect fashion as to - with utter, astonishing improbability - bring down BOTH of the world's tallest towers to rubble? With a couple of planes! One shot at it each!

For the Islamic radicals planning this attack with their conviction that God was on their side, this result fulfilled their wildest dreams and prayers for the operation.

If we are to infer God's hand in the events that unfold in the world, and that God gives signs to those who ask his help, I'd give the nod to God being on the side of radical Islam based on such a fantastic outcome. A raggedy band of radicals somehow managing to invade the biggest city in the mighty USA and DESTROY the twin towers? Where do I sign up for Islam?

Prof.

Tulkas, I appreciate the fact you are troubled by the incident you describe.

On the same theme, a thought experiment: if any of us had a tsunami-stopping machine at our disposal which, when the switch is pulled would stop the onrush of the killer tsunami in Asia, who here would have pulled the switch to save all those people, vs. just letting them all die when we had the power to easily stop it all?

I can tell you I'd pull the switch. In fact, I'd assert that anyone who had the power to do so and did not we would not call "good."

And yet...You Know Who could have stopped it, yet still gets to wear the mantle of Good Guy. Of course this moral contradiction makes no sense and Christians wish to absolve God with excuses like "He must have some Big Good Plan for us that we don't know about."

Well, Hitler, despite the appearance that he was just fine with seeing Jews baked in ovens, may also have had some big plan we didn't know about that was actually for everyone's greater good. Maybe even the greater good of the Jews.

Sure. It's a logical possibility if we really, want to believe Hitler was actually good despite the deaths he had the power to stop. But the evidence doesn't exactly point that way, does it? We wouldn't excuse Hitler on such a flimsy speculation of having some mysterious plan, despite the appearance to the contrary. Why in the world should we accept such a flimsy excuse for God?

The problem is, if God has some mysterious plan for the greater good, without KNOWING the plan we can not KNOW that the "greater good" is in fact in our interest - that is something we would actually call good from a human perspective. It may well be that this "greater good" in God's eyes is our suffering and pain. And there would seem to be evidence in that direction. If thousands of people die for a mysterious "greater good" then apparently, whatever this greater good is, it clearly isn't concerned with minimizing human suffering...which is a darned creepy warning sign.

Finally, for Christians who believe in a hell for those who do not accept Christ as Savior, this tag line from another forum would seem to make a succinct point:

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank for being Jewish. For that, we call him evil.

God burns Anne Frank for being Jewish, forever. For that, theists call him "good"

Prof.

Among other reasons- its the story of Elisha and the 2 bears that I had to leave Biblical religion.

you: For the Islamic radicals planning this attack with their conviction that God was on their side, this result fulfilled their wildest dreams and prayers for the operation.

If we are to infer God's hand in the events that unfold in the world, and that God gives signs to those who ask his help, I'd give the nod to God being on the side of radical Islam based on such a fantastic outcome. A raggedy band of radicals somehow managing to invade the biggest city in the mighty USA and DESTROY the twin towers? Where do I sign up for Islam?

me: If one does not understand the "logos" the divine plan of God that was with Him from the beginning (John 1:1) then one cannot make sense or make claims as to God's allegiance in and under any circumstances.

You don't believe in God so you are really just stating what you think is a conundrum to Christians. "See, the Muslims were successful and therefore one could argue that God was with them."

In understanding the plan of God, we need to look to His handbook to understand how He intervenes in the affairs of men.

It is theolgoically defensible based on reading the history of the Nation of Israel that God does use nations, pagan nations as instruments of Judgement on His people, when they have turned there back on Him or are seeking to willfully frustrate His Logos (Plan).

America is morally corrupt, one could argue that God allowed the hit on NY as a warning and a call to repentance to America. I am not suggesting that God told me this or that this is what happened. I'm merely suggesting that it's a theological possibility.

you: On the same theme, a thought experiment: if any of us had a tsunami-stopping machine at our disposal which, when the switch is pulled would stop the onrush of the killer tsunami in Asia, who here would have pulled the switch to save all those people, vs. just letting them all die when we had the power to easily stop it all?

I can tell you I'd pull the switch. In fact, I'd assert that anyone who had the power to do so and did not we would not call "good."

me: well, there are many people that would argue with you. What impact would this have on the ecology? What about the population control people who think we are actually a threat to the eco system?

The reality is that you say that, because you view life as the 0 to 80 plus years that we live. If you view life from the dawn of time, to the end of time and through eternity, your conclusions wouldn't be based on fallible limited human paradigms.

you: And yet...You Know Who could have stopped it, yet still gets to wear the mantle of Good Guy. Of course this moral contradiction makes no sense and Christians wish to absolve God with excuses like "He must have some Big Good Plan for us that we don't know about."

me: but we do know about it. God's intentions were made perfectly clear when He robed Himself in flesh and walked amongst His creation.

God's attributes include moral perfection, holiness, omniscience, etc. He could be a tyrant and what could we do? He could be evil and what could we do? But I would suggest that He's not, that His holiness and judgements have been tempered by love and mercy as evidenced in the life He led when He came to earth.

Jesus showed the face of God. He showed the power of God. He showed the love of God. He showed the compassion of God.

Jesus stood before the High Priest servants who arrested Him.

Jesus said:

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus knew that He had the power, AND THE RIGHT, to destroy creation. He gave an analogy that the Jews, suffering under Roman oppression understood. He could call for 12 legions of supernatural beings, angels, objects of God's power and wrath, and command them to crush those arresting Him.

Yet He remained true to the LOGOS, the Plan that was with God and was God from the beginning. That's why the scriptures, predicted thousands of years before His birth HAND TO BE FULFILLED. Because there is a grand plan.

you: "Hitler burned people like Anne Frank for being Jewish. For that, we call him evil.

God burns Anne Frank for being Jewish, forever. For that, theists call him "good"

me: this is a mess. Hell was reserved as a place for fallen angels who had disobeyed God and sought an open rebellion against Him. It was not made for man. However, when man also rebelled, God's Holiness had to be satisfied. Sin cannot be in heaven. In heaven there is no rebellion to God. So how could a rebellious man be with God for eternity (heaven)?!!?

Hell is reserved for those who get WHAT THEY WANT. That is a life separated from God.

But again, God's judgements are tempered BY LOVE AND MERCY. No one, NO ONE, has to go to hell. "God is not willing that ANY should PERISH..."

You don't believe in God prof, you don't believe you owe Him anything, you don't believe you need your sins dealt with, and you certainly don't want anything to do with the God of the Bible.

If...If, that God is God, what can you say on the day that you stand before Him? "Oh now I get it...now I'd like to retract my earlier stmts and I would like to live with you now...is it ok now, if you just wipe away my sins!!??!"

I mean, aren't you going to get what you want? Eternity w/out God?!

prof.

you know, we don't really need to pull from hypothetical tsunamis on this discussion. Think about the "Double Cross" program England had during WWII. They had caught and turned all german spies, plus they had decoded enigma.

The hard thing was that they would get intelligence about attacks and not be sure how to respond. If they responded too well, the secret would be out and the Germans would change codes.....thus possibly leading to even worse destruction down the road.

I cant imagine how hard it was to be churchill knowing for sure that a city was going to be bombed in just a few hours and knowing that you were keeping that a secret for a hoped for "better good"

In my thread, I'm not trying to question God or assume that I'm smart enough to understand the BIG picture.

BUT, I think that when people start attributing things like strokes or lightning strikes (or the accuracy of planes hitting the towers) as evidence for devine intervention......YIKES.......i just think its dangerous.

And, honestly, if you do believe that Sharon's embolus was a special devine creation, i think you also HAVE to believe that God sent the clouds to save hitler. You just can't have it both ways.

I prefer not to have it either way. : )

And, BTW, I agree with you about what you said concerning people assigning these horrible attributes to God. I kept my wife up for like 90 minutes last night talking about that. The things people believe about God......if you knew a person like that you'd think he was the biggest SOB on the planet: jealous, emotional, vindictive, violent, judgmental, etc, etc, etc.

Sharon is a perfect example. If some palestinian jihad guy had run up and shot sharon in the head, he'd be considered a terrorist by almost everyone on earth, even pat Robertson. Yet no one thinks twice about saying that God did basically the same thing.

My position was that it was biblically supportable.

by the way, do you think God doesn't intercede or interfere in the affairs of men at all? Is so, when or how? Thanks!

honestly, this is the hardest thing for me to wrap my head around. Of course I believe in devine intercession..........but then on a case by case basis I'm skeptical.

but even in my own limited experience, I've seen things that i would definately call miracles....

very tough.

Tulka, I enjoy our conversations and have come to respect you. You are not a shoddy thinker. I don't agree with you theologically but I just wanted to say I enjoy our robust debates.

yes, same from me. I didn't expect some kind of fraternal bond......but I really think of you as a friend lately.

: \

:-)

tentatively reaches out hand and feels bad about making earlier personal comments

Sorry.

Favorite line from Three Amigos:

"Tell him about the Cochise picture, Morty"

"You meet Cochise, at first you don't trust him, you fight, and by the end [clap] YOUR FRIENDS!"

Three Amigos...

Where we trimmed the hedges and watered the bushes? "Hooray"?

You mean, "probably watered down"..."farley, farley, farley,"..."can I kiss you on the veranda...the lips would be fine..." 3 amigos?

"do you have anything besides Mexican food?"

"Hi, we're not Mexican's, we're from out of town."

"I think it was a male plane."

"ARe you the singing bush?"

"How do you like your bat, Dusty?"

: )

"my little buttercup, has the sweetest smile..."

"poor little guy, he's plum tuckered out..."

"he is more then famous, he is infamous!"

"I know dusty, I've been shot..."

"where'd you get that pretty little gun?"

alight mister, you are in a lot of trouble....real bullets!