Does anyone else believe

Underground Train Judo Ground
1

Hey Everyone

I had a discussion with someone yesterday about kids and judo
training. My program started out as an after school programbut has
grown into a pretty decent fighters haven. Anyway, the discussion i had
was about the need for a rest and down time in the training. I know
that usually in Judo we go all year round, but what I finding is that the
kids get very sluggish and unmotivated to train or compete. I am
thinking it is because of 11 month straight hard training and fighting
and no down time. I know the pros take like 3 months off to cross train
or just heal, and in Europe they do the same for Judo. Question for the
forum in, does anyone else notice such a thing and if so how do you
deal with it? Do you notice that we need to set up definite culminating
events - because random competitions here and there are not really
leading to anything in particular?

Currently we have tried different methods for averting burnout
including skipping a couple of tournaments in the past month and just
concentrated on playing games (they don't realize they are skill
building) and working on new techniques as well as bringing back the
fun. Could this be a way to defeat the junior burnout?

David

2

Dave,

I think it is pretty well documented that just competing for the sake of competing is not necessarily the best way. I don't know how hard you push the kids, I don't know the age and I don't know how often and long they train, but I would suspect that they are mentally overtrained as opposed to physically. Rhadi talks a lot about periodization and building up to a goal, as do many other trainers. I don't see why it would be any different for kids. In fact, I think it would be more important. They don't need to know the details because they are most likely to young to understand it, but you as the coach would know what they are building up to and how to up the training.

Pete Pelter

3

periodization! change it up!

4

Hey Dave,

Well you know me and you know my kids, so take this for what its worth. The phenomenon your experiencing is not uncommon to me. Over the last 4 years, our kids take a mandatory 1 month off from Judo following the nationals. I personally do this for several reasons.

First, kids are NOT adults nor are they professional athletes. I refuse to allow my kids (14 and below for the most part) to enter more than one junior national championship a year. Immediately following the nationals, we have a huge BBQ followed by a 1 1/2 months OFF. I want them to experience other things during their Summer.

Second, I personally use this time to regenerate my own batteries, vacation with my wife, plan for the upcoming year's training, etc.

Third, year round training and competing produces a burnout factor not only on kids, but their parents as well. As you well know, your kids will usually be more successful if they have full support from their home environment ( not that our kids do anyway) but it helps.

Fourth, I have recently changed our entire program philosophy from providing an "ego-involved" competative environment to a more "task-involved" learning environment. The goal of our coaches is to produce young athletes that are in this sport for the intrinsic motivational rewards as opposed to external rewards, such as medals and triple crown titles.

Often what occurs is that in a competative environment, kids realize that only the national champions or gold medal winners get the attention from the coaches. They get discouraged or become amotivational........and end up leaving the sport.

I am currently doing my Masters thesis on this very subject; of the relationships between achievement goal orientations + perceived motivational climates (as produced by coaches and parents) and the decision to approach or avoid evaluative situations (competitions).

So, after all that, we have decided to stop "stressing" competition and start rewarding skill mastery, hard work, autonomy, and competence. This has helped us avoid burnout and produce psychologically healthy young adults that are prepared for college, which is the overall objective of our PAL program.

For those that do want to compete regularly, periodization is absolutely a key point that holds a lot of merit.

Sorry for the lengthy response, but I don't often get to share what we are working on up here. Thanks for asking the question.

Mike

5

awesome response Mike. Though I am not drinking anymore the first
round is on me in CO. Periodazation is very known tome a usually set out
to peak during the junior season, but it is ridiculous to think that our kids
can maintain that peak for 5 weeks, so yes I agree with Mike. However I ill
take you one step further Mike and find a way to combine a task oriented
and competition oriented. We must find away to still get our best fighters
out there ready to represent the USA in international competition. I refuse
to give up that hope to give to those on the east coast. I do agree that
more then one nationals is stupid. Add one international and that should
be it - just add a crap load of camps - kids like sleep overs, maybe we
can set oneup out here.

David

6

Very True Dave,

The literature regarding achievement goal theory and motivation is pretty clear that many of the most successful elite athletes are a combination of High-Task and High-Ego oriented. I think I only have a few like that. I must be careful; however, not to give them ALL the attention, but foster the Task side more. The ego side will be there, but with a drive to win. Those are really the remarkable ones.

For the rest of the kids; however, I take the approach of fostering their autonomy, competence and relatedness to each other. As young people, they have all the time in the world to decide to be World Champions. My goal at this time is to get them mentally ready for college, while giving them a taste of high level competition. Therefore, they might decide to really try to compete when they hit college (SJSU...:-)

As far as trying to be like the East Coast Teams............yeah I have thought about that at some length. For me, Im not feeling like my team needs to outperform those teams. Im looking more longterm for my kids. I am watching those teams very closely though, particularly Florida. I like some of what Im hearing from their young athletes when they get interviewed. I hear task oriented type statements, like "I need to work harder on this or that" as opposed to "Yeah Im a tripe crown winner, Im 10 years old, and Im better than your kid." I'll be watching to see if those Florida kids can make the transition to the Senior level. If they are in fact fostering a high ego + high task environment, they will make it.

Only time will tell if Im full of shit...LOL.

I think I am most of the time. I will collect on that drink too!!

Peace

7

Great discussion on an important topic. Wish I had something of value to add.

All I can add is an ancedental observation. A club that I trained at in addition to my regular club, closed from July thru August. When September rolled around, a large percentage of the kids didn't return.

Even after two week breaks during the holiday season, our club loses a few members come the start of the New Year. Nothing drastic, but some.

I help a non-profit club, but it has a high cost structure. We couldn't close the doors for any period of time.

However, I think you guys are right about burnout, and I think it has a role in the attrition rate. A couple of questions, if you don't mind.

1) Are there any obvious early symptom signs of kids burning out?

2) What is the optimal amount of time that a kid should take off from judo, without them losing interest in the sport?

3) Is there structural changes to the program that will prevent burnout in the first place (other than telling the kids to take a month off)?

If this discussion leads to keeping an extra 2 kids a year, its worth it.

8

Judo Guy -

Great point, when I come back after that month-month and a half, some don't return. Those are the kids that I am usually NOT sad that they stopped. In effect, most are wasting valuable space. Judo isn't for everyone, and it typically was their time to move on. I always have a waiting list and this creates a great opening for new talent. I have only lost one core team member during that time............a VERY high ego oriented person.

Tow respond to your questions:

1) Yes there are easily recognizable signs usually, but not always. I have had some kids up and bail that I thought loved Judo. I realized that I had gotten off track with my goals and philosophy. They become amotivated, miss many practices, and aren't really connected in practice.

2.) I haven't found an optimum time for a break. Ive done everything from one week to 5 weeks. What I found was that the overwhelming majority came back excitedly.

3.) Yes, there are absolutely structural changes that can be made in the dojo. I would recommend that every coach further his/her coaching knowledge and consult with certified sports psychologists if they are serious about coaching for performance.

Mike

Mike

9

Hi Judodog,

Sounds like you have an atypical attrition rate. What do you think you are doing different than most clubs to keep it low?

10

Forget the kids - Me and video games - however doesn't it piss you off
when you play online and some easliy under 12 beats the crap out of you
and then laughs at you as they run off saying "You suck". Just makes you
want to jump through the screen and kill them.

David

11

my home club did something very simple to keep us from burning out. encouraged us to go on family vacations. for those who couldnt afford family vacations, they were encouraged to do things that would envolve family time and missing judo practices.

not everybody did this at the same time, but at various points of the year everybody did take time off on their own--with encouragement.

only 1 junior nationals was stressed--the closest one to us every year. it was well known that my coach and his family would go on vacation for 2+ weeks right after that event too. somebody else would be there to run practices then.

12

Judodog,

Thanks for the response. You have no idea how important this subject is to me. The line between pushing a kid for their own good, and pushing a kid out the door is a line I think we cross to often.

13

Great discussion.

14

i know and have heard that some tournament directors out here have
benn a bit perturbed at my programs missing of thier events this quarter
we have taken off from competitions. has anyone in their area tried
working against tradtional past weekends and tried putting together a
schedule that works towards a culminating event - like the nationals or
some other huge event?

i want to start such a thing but know that i will get grief from those who
like tradition more then development.

David

15

USAJUDODAVE wrote,

"i know and have heard that some tournament directors out here have benn a bit perturbed at my programs missing of thier events this quarter we have taken off from competitions."

Well, as we know tournaments are the big fundraisers for some clubs. Yeah, they're gonna be upset. But as long as you aren't relying on running your own tournament for funding, it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure you'll get the resistance because people don't want to buck tradition. I think you'll get grief because some clubs are going to want their events at certain times to maximize the attendance; and/or they have a place that they can use cheap at that time.

Exactly, what are you proposing and how does it benefit the other clubs in the area?

16

Yes

The way I see it is this. The "traditionalists" want your club there because it represents money.......bottom line end of story. I used to buy into the idea that I would offend someone if I missed their events, and some I missed specifically to offend (in my younger more aggressive days).

That approach left my program tired, broke (because we pay for all of our students' entry fees), and seeing students walk out the door. I also noticed that when I was attending the events, not one of the "traditionalists" said, "Hey, you guys are doing a great job, why don't you join our Yudanshakai." The only people that reached out to us were Vaughn, Mitchell, and Wayne. I believe that you reep what you sow.

When we stopped attending events, oh shit, direct hit to their bottom lines. Suddenly, Im getting phone calls, multiple letters, and emails.

What I have done now is pre-select the tournaments one year in advance that offer what Im looking for in a tournament. I look for high numbers of competitors, quality of officiating, quality of the tournament director, application of rules that I believe in, and when the occasion permits, support of people I think are good for Judo. I will not attend a tournament if our team isn't ready or where I need them to be.

As importantly, I match up the tournament schedule with my students' school and coaches vacation schedules, which I never used to do.

I have to look out for our team first. I have certainly come to realize one important point. The traditionalists can't fire me, but my students can.

A culminating event works very well for kids.

17

Just got a flyer for a tournament. Here is the list of banned techniques:

  • No Double Knee Drop Seoinage for 12 and under
  • No Shime Waza Choking for 12 and under
  • No Morote Gari for 12 and Under
  • No Kubinage (Arm wrapped around the neck) for 12 and under. Most refs call Hansoku-make for Koshi Guruma.
  • No Kani Basami
  • No Kansetsu Waza unless black belt division.

All violations result in Hansoku Make and ejection from the tournament.

Question: Is this pretty much in line with what you are all seeing around the country? We are seeing more and more techniques being banned here. Morote Gari Was the latest.

18

Great thread. I'm not the least bit involved in junior coaching, but it's
interesting, and an important discussion to be had.

Greg

19

banning of morote gari and koshi guruma... hmph.. i dont think id send my kids to that tournament.

those are perfectly safe and valid throws in judo. for people to ban them simply becuase they dont like them is about the worst thing i can think of.

20

"Is this pretty much in line with what you are all seeing around the country? "

No it is not. Our tournament is in 2 weeks and we just use the standard IJF rules. No chokes and armbars under 13 divisions, no armbars 13-17 divisions, anything goes 18 and up. Key word being divisions. If a 12 year old fights up in the 13 yo division (by choice), he better know how to defend a choke.