This is something I've always been puzzled by.
In MMA, if someone get's KO'd or even TKO'd a few times, everyone is calling for them to retire "before they're permanently injured". But in K-1 those guys are getting wrecked every few fights.
UG darling Manhoef, for example, has been KTFO five times out of only 13 fights in K-1, plus another KO and a TKO in MMA. I've never seen so much as a hint of concern about him.
Same applies to getting labeled "glass-jawed". Wanderlei or Uno get KO'd a couple times (sometimes by full-body haymakers with 4oz gloves) and they have suspect chins, but again, I can't say I've ever seen Manhoef's chin questioned (until recently, and then it was just because the shot "looked" weak).
ttt as I want to hear people's comments
Manhoef has been KO'd 3 times in K-1. Hes been KO'd 5 times in his entire kickboxing career which is 42 fights.
The 3 KO's in K-1 he gave up an average of about 40 pounds to those fighters.
There were years in between Manhoefs KO losses and Manhoef was extremely active in both MMA and K-1 during the span in between the Sefo and Maeda losses
Wanderlei was KO'd 3 times in 5 fights.
The span of Manhoefs 3 KO losses was probably over close to 20 fights
yet again Orcus posts a thread without bothering to see if his facts were anything close to true
I am using Manhoef as an example. Wikipedia shows 13 kickboxing matches for him with 5 KO losses. Not sure why they don't show the results of the other fights.
"The 3 KO's in K-1 he gave up an average of about 40 pounds to those fighters."
So because the guys KOing him were much larger than him, the KOs caused less brain trauma?
You seem to be focusing on the Manhoef example and getting all upset because you think it's some kind of attack on your boy or something. I don't care about Manhoef. My point is to wonder why the double standard. Replace him with any K-1 fighter.
Again: Virtually ALL of the K-1 fighters have been KO'd numerous times, but there is never the same "omg, are they trying to kill him" outrage that there is whenever an MMA fighter who's been KO'd a few times continues getting fights against tough opponents.
The majority of the forum think Wanderlei's "chin is gone" based on being KO'd by a massive flush hook from Rampage, a flush head kick from Crocop, and a flush haymaker from Henderson. They (I) think Arlovski has a glass jaw because he's been KO'd four times in his career, and only two of those were even true KOs.
HaMMerHouseFAN - ttt as I want to hear people's comments
Everyone is calling for Wanderlei to retire because he has lost 4 out of 5 fights and has gotten brutally KO'd in three of them.
When you go from winning a bazillion fights in a row to all of the sudden getting knocked out left and right and losing 4 of 5, then people will question whether or not you should retire.
Same with Chuck. He went from winning a ton of fights in a row to losing 4 of 5 (with the only win against a Wandy who has lost 4 of 5).
This is all very logical.
I don't have a problem questioning whether Chuck or Wand have the ability to compete at a high level due to competition passing them by or reflexes slowing with age, etc. I'm just wondering why the drama and worry about them being permanently hurt.
K-1 guys get KO'd more and they tend to take many more strikes per fight, as boxers do (from theoretically more skilled, more powerful fighters), but there just doesn't seem to be the same paranoia about lasting damage with them.
" Could be also that the glory days of K-1 were a while ago so most fans have been watching for a while. More longterm fans of fightsport = less emotional fanboys where everyone is either the greatest or a piece of shit who needs to retire before he gets killed in the ring."
Interesting point.
orcus - I am using Manhoef as an example. Wikipedia shows 13 kickboxing matches for him with 5 KO losses. Not sure why they don't show the results of the other fights.
"The 3 KO's in K-1 he gave up an average of about 40 pounds to those fighters."
So because the guys KOing him were much larger than him, the KOs caused less brain trauma?
You seem to be focusing on the Manhoef example and getting all upset because you think it's some kind of attack on your boy or something. I don't care about Manhoef. My point is to wonder why the double standard. Replace him with any K-1 fighter.
Again: Virtually ALL of the K-1 fighters have been KO'd numerous times, but there is never the same "omg, are they trying to kill him" outrage that there is whenever an MMA fighter who's been KO'd a few times continues getting fights against tough opponents.
The majority of the forum think Wanderlei's "chin is gone" based on being KO'd by a massive flush hook from Rampage, a flush head kick from Crocop, and a flush haymaker from Henderson. They (I) think Arlovski has a glass jaw because he's been KO'd four times in his career, and only two of those were even true KOs.
Manhoef isnt my boy thats the example you used and it just wasnt a good example. If you are getting KO'd by fighters significantly bigger then you it means your chin isnt bad you just need to fight guys your own size
Then name some other fighters in k-1 as examples then.
People are saying Liddell and Wanderlei have weak chins mostly because they were KO'd so many times close together
They were both KO'd 3 times in 5 fights, any fighter no matter what sport needs to take a look in the mirror after that
orcus - I don't have a problem questioning whether Chuck or Wand have the ability to compete at a high level due to competition passing them by or reflexes slowing with age, etc. I'm just wondering why the drama and worry about them being permanently hurt.
K-1 guys get KO'd more and they tend to take many more strikes per fight, as boxers do (from theoretically more skilled, more powerful fighters), but there just doesn't seem to be the same paranoia about lasting damage with them.
" Could be also that the glory days of K-1 were a while ago so most fans have been watching for a while. More longterm fans of fightsport = less emotional fanboys where everyone is either the greatest or a piece of shit who needs to retire before he gets killed in the ring."
Interesting point.
Name some K-1 fighters that would fit your example then.
This is an MMA board so less people talk about k-1, but after Aerts lost to Badr I seem to remember some saying he was done. So Im not too sure what point your trying to make
Sefo is another guy who went on a bad losing streak involving KO's and people wanted him to retire.
So who are the guys getting KO'd in K-1 that people arent calling for to retire?
well put well said
" If you are getting KO'd by fighters significantly bigger then you it means your chin isnt bad you just need to fight guys your own size"
It's two things, one is the glass chin and the other is the "he's going to die!"
"Name some K-1 fighters that would fit your example then."
Lebanner is listed as having been KO'd nine times in K-1 and 3 times in boxing. Badr's got 5 KO losses. Musashi has 10. Sefo's got 12. Aerts has 13. If these guys get the "he needs to retire", that's fine, carry on. I don't recall seeing it which is why i made the thread. If the argument is that the KOs do lasting damage then I wouldn't think spreading them out over 20, 30, 50 fights (in which you're taking damage every time) would really be any better for you than having them happen over a two-year period or whatever, especially since in the case of MMA fighters those KO shots tend to be the lion's share of the damage absorbed (e.g., Wanderlei took maybe three total shots from Rampage in their fight; Chuck took one from Rashad; etc).
You dont recall seeing that Aerts and Sefo need to retire?
God damn your reading comprehension of records is either terrible or you do it on purpose to spin things further your way.
JLB is 4-0 in boxing hes never been KO'd there.
He hasnt been KO'd since 2002 and that was from body shots. All the TKOs since then were from him blowing out his knee or breaking his arm. It been since 2001 since hes been truly KO'd thats a good reason for people not calling for his retirement. He taken his share of shots since then, if his chin had weakened from the amount of punishment I havent noticed. You sure of hell havent noticed because its clear you rarely watch k-1
Its clear Badr Hari has a weak chin which is why he'll never be a GP champ. But hes 24 fucking years old, thats why people arent calling for his retirement
Musashi has taken his share of punishment and Ive heard people call for his retirement as well.
But hes a journeymen and obviously less people talk about him.
So you think if somebody getting gets KO'd 3 times in 5 fights and another gets KO'd 3 times in 20 fights that there chin is the same?
People have short memories and are going to forget the KO a guy had 5 fights ago which is why they wont be calling for his retirment as much as the guy whos been KO'd 3 times in 5 fights.
So in conclusion there is no double standard you just dont pay attention to K-1
"God damn your reading comprehension of records is either terrible or you do it on purpose to spin things further your way."
It's the former. lol @ "spinning" this, though -- I'm asking a question, not trying to convince anyone of anything.
"So in conclusion there is no double standard you just dont pay attention to K-1"
Great -- mods, close this thread.
CRBMoney14 - Manhoef has been KO'd 3 times in K-1. Hes been KO'd 5 times in his entire kickboxing career which is 42 fights.
The 3 KO's in K-1 he gave up an average of about 40 pounds to those fighters.
There were years in between Manhoefs KO losses and Manhoef was extremely active in both MMA and K-1 during the span in between the Sefo and Maeda losses
Wanderlei was KO'd 3 times in 5 fights.
The span of Manhoefs 3 KO losses was probably over close to 20 fights
Wand would destroy Manhoef
orcus, do you understand that the calls for retirement are usually about head injuries? Name some K-1 guys still competing who have been brutally starched several times like Wanderlei Silva and Jon Goulet, and aren't getting the retirement pressure (as mentioned, guys like Sefo, Musashi and Aerts have all been told to hang it up before)
Considering you get all of your information on k-1 from wikipedia, instead of watching fights, you should just look up "double standard" on wikipedia, and see if anything about k-1 is listed.