DREAM's rules re: neck strikes?

Does anyone have access to DREAM's written rules?

I'm specifically interested in the rules regarding strikes to the neck area and elbow point strikes. 

Do they have a specific prohibition against strikes to the side or back of the neck?  Or just the standard MMA rule about no strikes to the spine or back of the head?

And do their rules about standing elbow point strikes only prohibit downward strikes with the point of the elbow?  Or any strikes with the point of the elbow?

http://www.mmafighting.com/news/2008/dream_no_kicks_to_the_head_of_a_downed_opponent.html

Pointed elbow attacks to the spine/neck can cause permanent damage.

What do you think?

Pointed elbow attacks to the spine/neck can cause permanent damage.

What do you think?


I think that's both irrelevant and not an answer to my question.


Also it is not entirely true.  What is the unique danger of strikes to the side of the neck?  Guys get head-kicked to the side of the neck all the time in MMA and kickboxing.

People get killed via headkicks to the neck every year in Thailand, dumbass.

I don't see any rules prohibiting strikes to the side or back of the neck or non-downward elbow point strikes.  Does DREAM have unique rules on this subject? 

If not, then JZ should have been awarded the win by TKO or injury default, because the strikes that incapacitated Aoki were NOT illegal. 

The elbow strikes were clearly to the side of the neck, maybe barely the back of the neck, but nowhere near the spine.   Rewatch the video and you can clearly see the back of Aoki's neck when the second elbow connects.

And they were not downward elbows, but from the side. 

^^ source?

People get killed via headkicks to the neck every year in Thailand, dumbass.

Oh really?  Then why is it not banned in MMA or K-1, etc. etc. 

Regardless, your point is irrelevant unless neck strikes are actually illegal under the DREAM rules.

"The elbow strikes were clearly to the side of the neck, maybe barely the back of the neck, but nowhere near the spine."

Sijan,

The second elbow hits the back of the neck. Aoki moves suddenly causing this, but it hits the back of the neck quite clearly in the video.

-jk

No, it was not quite clear in the way you think.  Watch the video again.  Freeze the frame at the moment of impact - it's around 4:08.   You can still see the back of Aoki's neck when JZ's elbow hits him.  Ergo, the strike was not to the back of the neck, but to the side of the neck.  If anything, it was mostly on the side of the neck and partly on the back of the neck. 

But it definitely was NOT a strike to the spine.  And only strikes to the spine and the back of the head are illegal, unless DREAM has some special rules that they haven't told anyone about.. 

"You can still see the back of Aoki's neck when JZ's elbow hits him. Ergo, the strike was not to the back of the neck, but to the side of the neck."

I meant the third elbow, that one hits him in the center of the back of the neck. Do you agree with this? This is the second elbow shown in the replay at about the 5 minute mark.

-jk

I'll have to find the video again and take another look, but from memory the third elbow appears to sort of glance off the upper traps and sort of skip across the back.  It may skip across the spine after it is deflected by the traps, but I don't think any ref would call a deflected blow like that illegal.

The elbow that did the damage was with the point of the elbow to the side of the cervicle vertebrae at the base of the skull (clearly illegal by any modern rules). The last elbow was to the back of the head/neck, but the point didn't hit. The forearm hit the back of the head glancing.

I watched it again.  It's not a very good angle for the third elbow because Aoki ducks down right then and his shoulder blades sort of obscure the point of contact.  Looks to me like it mostly misses, skims across the top of the traps.  I don't think it really connects with the spine.  But it's hard to say. 

"third elbow appears to sort of glance off the upper traps and sort of skip across the back. It may skip across the spine after it is deflected by the traps, but I don't think any ref would call a deflected blow like that illegal."

Re-watch it. Your assessment is fair, but in my opinion, the third elbow/forearm lands with significant force and that force impacted the center of the back of the neck, making it an unintentional illegal blow (which happens all the time in the UFC). Aoki moves suddenly causing the third elbow strike to nail him in the center of the back of the neck.

-jk

The elbow that did the damage was with the point of the elbow to the side of the cervicle vertebrae at the base of the skull (clearly illegal by any modern rules).

No, it did not.  It was not that high.  It is much lower, as can be seen by the fact that it his his right trapezius on the way in.  Then it hits the side of the neck.

Care to back up your earlier claims?

The last elbow isn't the one that caused the damage. It was the next to last one. Aoki doesn't move, he is dropping from being stunned (something that happens when the spine is attacked).

Regardless of where it hit. It was unintentional.

Right, but depending on where it hit, it may not have been illegal at all.  In which case JZ should win by TKO or injury default.

But I am not so sure now.  It is hard to tell where the third strike hits exactly.  But I thought the second strike was the one that did all the damage, and it appears to be legal to me.  The third strike mostly misses and I don't think had much effect on Aoki.

The last elbow isn't the one that caused the damage. It was the next to last one.

I agree with you there.  I thought the second elbow was the one that hurt him.

Aoki doesn't move, he is dropping from being stunned (something that happens when the spine is attacked).

I don't think so.  I think he does move, although he may be partially stunned.  But people are stunned by lots of things that aren't spine attacks, like a hard strike to the side of the neck, so I'm not buying your diagnosis. 

"Care to back up your earlier claims?"

Why don't we do some empirical testing?

I will load up and elbow spike you in the neck, spine, and base of the skull and we will see if there is permanent damage (though the fact that you seem to be a cro-magnon might skew the data).

My sources for both claims come from readily available information from any Thai boxing competitor/instructor that has seen 1000s of fights in Thailand.

Chai Siruiste is good starting point.