I really want to train in Kyokushin to compliment my bjj.However there are no kyokushin karate schools on Long Island where i live.Do you recommend Enshin which is available to me?
Yeah, from what I've seen of an Enshin instructional the founder is a Kyokushin guy. My buddy who does Seidokan (or something like that) told me that Kyokushin doesn't allow grabbing the gi at all, but Enshin and his style has some light grappling.
The katas in Enshin look interesting as well. They look more like you're fighting an invisible enemy than other karate katas I've seen.
I studied Enshin with Ninomiya (the systems founder for 6 or so years) I also studied Judo under him for almost 7 years.
Enshin Karate is actually based on Ashihara style Karate. Hideyuki Ashihara was Ninomiya's instructor. Ashihara himself was a student of Mas Oyama who is the founder of Kyokushinkai. So Enshin is a derivative of a derivative. In other words Enshin is derived from a style which itself derived from Kyokushin.
Ninomiya was a judo player before he got involved in Karate and even continued to practice it while he was studying Karate when he was still in high school. So Ninomiya's style has a strong judo influence. But it has only been very recent years Ninomiya has put more "judo" type throws and sweeps into his system. He started adding more Judo throws after he began teaching Judo once a week in 1998. His eldest son is also a Judo player. He, has been studying Karate under his father about 8 or so years and his individual style is heavily influenced by Judo. He was my Judo training partner for about two years.
It isn't just the Judo throws per se that is found in Enshin but more so variations of Judo throws which have been adapted to fit the kyokushinkai style of Karate. The ones who happen to do really well with these "judo-inspired" techniques are the ones who already have years of experience in Judo.
m.g.
Has Enshin incorporated any newaza into the Karate training?
T
Hey m.g.
I didn't know that Ninomiya was a judo player, now wonder I am crazy about Enshin. I
Can you email me. I am really enshin fan...
I just got my black belt in Sayokan karate, and the founder of that style studied with Hideyuki Ashihara in the early 80s.
I am interested on getting my hand on any video tape or training material that you might have.
I can't afford to buy the stuff of the enshin website, cause I am already strap for cash, baby coming in August, going to Rodney King's Seminar, taxes etc..
I have the Sabaki Method that I bought in 1999, and I have read and practiced it like my bible.
So if you have any old stuff you want to onload let me know.
Thanks
Mong
www.fusionmma.com
zeerebel@gmail.com or zeerebel@inbox.com
p.s. I don't check those email all the time because I can't access it from work.
tball,
Enshin has not incorporated newaza into it's curriculum. We did do alot of newaza in the Judo class Ninomiya had BUT the class was limited to just a few students. Ninomiya is a very good Judoka with excellent throwing skills. He has good newaza skills BUT he wasn't a very technical. What I mean by that is he didn't know nor have a hugh reportoire of ground techniques. The techniques he knew were fairly basic BUT he was very good with them. Nonetheless he was very limited in some situations because of his limited range of ground techniques. Like for example he only had and did one guard pass. Nothing fancy. It was effective but once you figured it out it was easy to counter. He was (and is) a very good instinctional grappler, meaning, he did alot of good and correct things based on instinct, based on knowing how to move and how to position himself and how to take advantage of the opponent's movements and positions. He is one of those types of people who learns simply from observation.
zeerebel,
I have some material and access to other material. Email me at gallantm@mscd.edu
hey M.G.
I sent you an email 3 days ago... did it you received it
Yes I received it...I just haven't had time to respond to it.
i would train Enshin/Kyokushin if there were any schools near me
Enshin is a exellent choice from the kyokushin karate "family" of styles. Perhaps better than Kyokushin, since kyokushin dont allow grabs/pulls and the like, while enshin preaches it.
In japan, kyokushin fighters sometime referes to enshin as the "cheaters" style, because it allows so much in competition (and teaches it) that is strictly banned in kyokushin competitions.
I've seen an Enshin instructional by who I assumed is the founder. I like the intergration of throws with the striking, looks good!
Kolsyrade,
You said: "In japan, kyokushin fighters sometime referes to enshin as the "cheaters" style, because it allows so much in competition (and teaches it) that is strictly banned in kyokushin competitions."
I didn't know that. That's interesting. I will say this about Enshin, it really helps if one knows Kykoshinkai and knows Judo before they study it. The reason why is those artforms will give you insight as well as answers as to why certain things are done the way they are done.
I stated this in an earlier post in this thread but I think it is worth mentioning again. Enshin is commonly known to be an off-shoot of Kyokushinkai. BUT in actuality it actually derived from Ashihara style Karate which itself is an off-shoot of Kyokushinkai. So Enshin is an offshoot style of an offshoot style.
Ashihara was one of Mas Oyama's best students. He was also one of his best instructors/trainers. The interesting thing about him is he actually incorporated and taught what soon became the core and basis of Ashihara style Karate to his students and fighters waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay he even created the Ashihara style.
He didn't systemize his teachings and ideas until after he was kickout of the Kyokushinkai system.
So before Ashihara created and systemize his own style he was actually teaching core and essential principles of it within the Kyokushinkai system.
In my view this was a better situation because there wasn't a disconnection between the principles of Ashihara and the reason why those principles were thought of in the first place.
The principles and concepts of Ashihara were specifically designed to deal with a particular type of fighter and this particular type of fighter was the typical Kyokushinkai fighter.
And without any understanding or knowledge of what a typical Kyokushinkai fighter is like then one kinda loses any meaning, function and purpose behind the techniques, principles and concepts of Ashihara. The same can be said about Enshin. And because Enshin is actually based on Ashihara and Judo you'll get an even greater understanding of Enshin in terms of the whys and the purpose and intention behind everything when you study or have studied those two artform (along with Kyokushinkai).
Hey M.G.
What do you think of the development of Ashihara and Enshin. Since the Ahihara founder has passed away.
Also do you think is possible to just study the strategies, concept of training method of Enshin without learning the kata. And if how many katas are there. I have the Sabaki Training Method, and I think I showed 2 katas.
I do not like katas at all. I have a black belt in Sayokan Karate
http://www.sayokan.co.uk/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=gallery,
- the founder of that style study under Ashihara in Japan. Unfortunely he is in Turkey and the branch chief I study under I feel does not have the depth that I am looking for.
zeerebel,
First let me address the kata question. In Enshin Karate there is one kata for each belt level and there are five belt level.
The belt levels are: white, blue, yellow, green, brown and black.
The katas of Enshin (and Ashihara as well) were made up by the founder (so the Enshin katas were made up by Joko Ninomiya and the Ashihara katas were made up by Hideyuki Ashihara). They not at all like traditional Karate katas.
The thing about the katas is they essentially made of the basic techniques and basic strategies of the Enshin and are meant as a "guide" for combinations as well as a "memory aid" for the techniques and combinations. In other words they are suppose to help you remember the techniques and combinations as well as remember what "context" and "situation" certain techniques/combinations are best used for. For example the green belt kata, "midori obi no kata", is suppose represent middle distance, so all the combinations and technique are what you used when you're fighting in that distance.
I don't like Katas either. But over the years I have come to understand their function and purpose. If you know all the katas then you essentially know the entire Enshin style (assume the same can be said about Ashihara).
There are more techniques and combination in Enshin then what is contained in the katas. Like I said the katas are meant to help you remember the more basic combinations. You're actually suppose to devise and create your own combinations and the kata is meant as staring point for that. In one of Ninomiya's book he descibed kata training like practicing a musical instrument. He said kata is like learning the scales, notes and chords. When we would do bag training Ninomiya would have us create our on combinations. This would be like a musician improvising and creating "music" by combining the notes and chords he has already mastered.
So to answer your question: is it possible to just study the strategies, concept of training method of Enshin without learning the kata? Yes it is possible. You'll essentially end up "creating" you own katas though because it is hard to remember (at first) the strategies, foot work and techniques without them. Once you master the strategy, footwork, and basic principle/concept of sabaki then you really don't need the kata but while you're building a foundation they are good to know, at least the white belt kata.
I don't regularly practice Enshin. I haven't really consistently practiced it in about ten years. Sometimes I will practice it just to maintain my skills. And I've found the one kata I know well has actually helped me to remember all that I've learn.
In dealing with what I think of the development of Ashihara and Enshin since Ashihara has passed away, well...I can't speak about Ashihara style but I can speak about Enshin; I tend to think Enshin has become more like Judo and less like Karate. I don't think this is wrong but I think I think the strategies and tactics of the style will lose its meaning and purpose once it moves away from its original purpose and function.
-more-
-cont-
See, before Ashihara was kick out of the Kyokushinkai organization he didn't have a "system" or "style". He was actually teaching core and essential principles of his future system (sabaki) within the Kyokushinkai system. And what he taught was designed to deal with the typical attack patterns of Kyokushinkai.
So what Ashihara came up with and taught were "answers" to the typical kyokushin fighter. A typical Kyokushin fighter would attack a certain way and Ashihara taught his fighters had deal with that way.
Well...once Ashihara was removed from the Kyokushin organization his fighter no longer were dealing with that typical Kyokushin fighter but rather dealing with fighters from their own school. In other words Ashihara fighters were now dealing with fighters from Ashiharas school.
This will naturally cause the strategy and technique to change. Ashihara fighters have to develop techniques and strategies to deal with fighters who not only know know the same techniques they do but also approach fighting in the same way.
Enshin, in many ways, is a product of this change. Ninomiya devised ways to deal with the typical Ashihara fighter. And Enshin itself will soon become a victim of this process itself. Soon the techniques you'll learn will be designed and meant to deal with someone who knows Enshin. And it will go on and on until it is all becomes far removed from the "original" vision.
Years ago, one of Ninomiya's top instructor and former fighter, told one of my classmates that if he really wanted to understand "sabaki" (which is the core strategy of both Ashihara and Enshin) he should start with Kyokushin. If you start with Kyokushin and then look at the techniques of Ashihara and then Enshin you'll begin to build and understanding as to why certain techniques, strategies and tactics were even created/developed in the first place.
m.g
Interesting take on the sabaki as specificaly built to fight a typical kyokushin fighter. Not all sure I agree in full, though, since the original kyokushin contains very much of the sabaki concept as well. Only it it not focused on as it is in ashihara/Enshin. In kyokushin it is A way of movement, while in ashihara/enshin it is the ONLY way.
But ok.I can agree that most kyokushin fighters tend to stick to the straight forward/backward movement patterns that usualy was the first way they learned, and that sabaki is a good way of dealing with that.
Sad prediction about the future of Enshin. Unfortunal I kind of agree with you. Any style that fights outsiders regularly is in trouble.
--
New non-political kyokushin forum. Spread the word!
http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/index.php
Awesome Post M.G.
Keep on posting.
What you said about katas for Ashihara/Enshin is absolutely correctly. I only had to learn 3 katas for Sayokan, since the branch chief in the state doesn't know all 6 yets.
And the katas were very different than the traditional karate kata.
Do you know if there is any training camp, or intense training session (weeks at a time) for students who wants to train in it.
And have you been on the Enshin website lately. Which DVD do you suggest.
Thanks
kolsyrade,
You said: "the original kyokushin contains very much of the sabaki concept as well."
Well keep in mind that before Ashihara was kicked out of the Kyokushinkai organization he actually "trained" alot of Kyokushinkai fighters (who happen to compete against other Kyokushinkai fighters). Kyokushinkai fighters would actually come to him for special fighters trainer. Ashihara had a reputation of developing excellent fighters.
In fact in Ninomiya's autobiography he stated that he observed many fighters coming to train with Ashihara for the tournament. He made a special note of a fighter, who had lost the All-Japan the previous, coming to train with Ashihara and end up winning that year.
Another fighter who had trained with Ashihara before Ashihara left the Kyokushinkai organization (I'm sorry but I forgot the fighter's name; give me time to remember it and I'll post it later) stated in an interview that Ashihara taught the principle and concept of sabaki while he was still a member of Kyokushinkai BUT he just didn't teach it systematically. He didn't systemize it all until after he left the Kyokushinka organization.
Also keep in mind their is a debate between how Ashihara left the Kyokushinkai organization. From Ashihara point of view he left on his own accord. From the Kyokushinkai point of view he was kicked out. It is said he was kicked out because he was doing too well for himself. What I mean by that is, apparently he was drawing in too many students to schools he established. Supposedly the other instructors were jealous of this and in someway forced him out of the organization.
BUT even if the concept of sabaki existed in Kyokushinkai it was Ashihara who "taught" and "exposed" his student to it the most. He may not have created it but he certainly used it the most, both as a fighter himself and as a trainer of fighters.
The majority of the fighters who successfully used the principle and concept in competition most likely learned it from him.
zeerebel,
I would get Sabaki Method I and III. I seen alittle of Sabaki Method II and I think it shows mostly footage of Ninomiya's training camps in Japan and in the U.S. If you're interested in the katas then I would also get the kata DVDs.
Ninomiya does have an "uchideshi" program (I don't know if I am saying the word right) where people from all over the world can come to Denver and train with him. You can train for as long as you can afford whatever length you sign up for.
I've known some people who have were in the program for as long as three and four years. I also known some who were in the program for a few months and some for a few weeks.
BUT you get a heck of alot. You must understand that in this program you are "expected" to train ALOT. You have to attend every training session including the morning sessions. You will also be living in the "dorm" (which is a house that Ninomiya built on to the school). This "dorm" has three rooms and a kitchen. You'll most likely be sharing that space with other live-in students. And along with training you'll be expect to do alot of different chores.
Also most of Ninomiya's live-in students are Japanese. This type of situation is common among Japanese martial arts.
If you're interested send Ninomiya an email I'm sure he'll send you some information.
Thanks for the post,
I might do that this summer - I might go down and train for 1 week, I work in school setting, so I am off for the summer. Now I just have to convience my wife.
Enshin/Ashihara is the style that I am dying to get a taste of to see if is effective. I see a lot of possiblitity to combine with my judo/mma training.
You can email me at zeerebel@gmail.com
Can I used you name as I reference? (I will state that you been posting, and giving info and nothing more)- what is your actual name and what years did you train with him.
Thanks,
Mong
www.fusionmma.com