enshin karate kyokushin karate

[m.g]

Zeerebel,

My name is Michael Gallant. They know me by Michael G. I trained there from 1990 until about 1998 for Enshin. And from 1998 until about 2004 or 2005 for Judo.

Incidently although Enshin derived from Ashihara and at one time was close to Ashihara; it is very different now. Alot of things you'll learn in Enshin are designed to deal with someone who knows Enshin. So you'll get alot of extra stuff which has limited use.

I don't know how much Ashihara has changed since Ashihara's death 10 years ago. I don't think it has change too much.

I personally think Ashihara in some ways is more realistic, practical and effective then Enshin. Ashihara seems to be much more adaptable to both Judo as well as Muay Thai. Enshin, nowadays, is a bit more complicated and complex then it use to be.

[zeerebel]

Thanks for the info,

Is there any good Ashihara school around, who might cater to someone like myself.

I think I am brain wash because, I don't have any ashihara videos, or book. And I read some where that Ashihara has decline since the founders death.

Also I wanted to train with someone in the state.

[m.g]

Zeerebel,

I don't know of any Ashihara schools in my area.

I had an Ashihara instructional video that was in Japanese. It had the man himself, Ashihara, in it demostrating the techniques. It also had Ninomiya demostrating Ashihara's style. I actually "borrowed the video from someone and never returned it to him. And then loan the video to someone and they never returned it. So I no longer have the video. Incidently the video was produced in 1985, about 4 years before Ashihara became ill.

I also "had" to books by Ashihara. Both were the english versions of the two books he produced. The fist book was published in 1985 and the second was published in 1989.

Ashihara demostrated most of the techniques in the first book and Ninomiya demostrated alot in the second book.

Interesting thing is Ninomiya broke away from Ashihara in May of 1988. Ashihara's second book was published in 1989 with lots of pictures of Ninomiya in it. I guess that even though they both were not on speaking terms Ashihara felt he still needed Ninomiya to help promote the book. In case you didn't know Ninomiya was one of the most popular former All-Japan Kyokushinkai champion. His popularity did alot to promote Ashihara's style.

I've talked to a student of Ashihara's who is the head director of Ashihara South Africa (I can't remember the exact name of the organization but he is a big name in the Ashihara organization especially in South Africa). He trained with Ninomiya for awhile before Ninomiya broke away and started Enshin.

Anyway this guy's name is Hoosain. He told me Ashihara was really hurt by Ninomiya's leaving the organization. There was alot of things (techniques, strategies etc) he kept to himself because he was afraid that whomever he showed would leave him and start their own thing like Ninomiya.

BUT because Ashihara was sick with ALS (Lou Gerhig's disease) I don't think there was much he could really physically show anyone anyway.

Let me tell you when Ashihara was healthy he was damn impressive. His style was very simple, logical, practical and effective. And to see him demostrate it was a very beautiful thing to watch. His movements, positioning and timing were awesome.

Even though Ninomiya may have been a better natural athlete I think Ashihara was a better fighter.

[Kolsyrade]

Hoosain Narker is the head of a splinter oranisation of ashihara that broke off after Hideyuki Ashihara passed away, called Ashihara international with headquarter in south africa. They are not part of the main ashihara organisation (NIKO ashihara kaikan) that is now run by Hidenori Ashihara, Hidyuki Ashiharas son.

Semmy Schilt was a member of Ashihara international until he switched to seidokaikan for k-1 political reasons a year ago. However his old ashihara instructor, coach and sensei (Dave Jonkers, head of ashihara international in europe), is still his coach even after the switch.

The two books by ashihara are called "Fighting karate" and "More fighting karate". They were released in japanese long before they were translated to english. The third book in the serie. "Even more fighting karate" (I must say that he didnt put much work into the titles), were never translated. Perhaps they had still more material with Ninomyia.

-- New non-political kyokushin forum. Spread the word! http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums/index.php

[zeerebel]

Yeah Hoosain Narker, I been on his website. The founder of Sayokan karate train with Ashihara and Ninomiya.

Because I am small guy, I am always looking for strategies or concept, rather than relaying on just techniques, or athletic abilities.

Keep on posting

[its_all_good]

Mg writes,

BUT even if the concept of sabaki existed in Kyokushinkai it was Ashihara who "taught" and "exposed" his student to it the most. He may not have created it but he certainly used it the most, both as a fighter himself and as a trainer of fighters. The majority of the fighters who successfully used the principle and concept in competition most likely learned it from him

If you ever get the chance,check out William oliver (kyokushin fighter)doing his own interpretation of the harlem sabaki during the film fighting black kings,way before ashihara and enshin styles were ever created.

I think kyokushin as you well know was derived upon the concepts from both the shotokan and goju-ryu karate styles.As a matter of fact I think kyokushin represent both of those styles thru their katas within the kyokushin curriculumm.

The irony here is that the original kyokushin full contact tournament fighting took on the similar linear methods of the fighting that existed primarily within shotokan karate system,which was basically straight foward and back in a very linear fashion.The difference ofcourse being in full contact aspect of fighting which was encouraged during kyokushins kumite.

The more circular/softer aspects of the kyokushin style existed within the goju portion of the kyokushin style,unfortunately this circular/softer interpretation was geared more for actual self defense instead of tournaments,or in most cases the more advanced kyokushin practicioners.ofcourse instead kyokushin became well known for it's full contact tournament fighting principles.

Going back to william oliver for a second who showed excellent sabaki skills way back in the early 70s leads me to believe that there were a bunch of sabaki specialist back in the day but Ashihara definitely cornered the market at the right time or better yet the politcial infight helped him corner the market better.

Japanese karate styles like shotokan,shito,wado or goju-ryu all have their sabaki specialist within their own schools but only because of a politcal reason would one really need to move on and create his own syle or system.

by the way I am a big fan of Ninomiya and I thought his autobiography was excellent.Aside from ashihara and judo I would not doubt that his limited kickboxing experience as a youngster also helped inspire his sabaki methods somewhat also.

[m.g]

IAG,

What William Oliver was doing wasn't sabaki. Sabaki is more than just soft circular movements. Sabaki is more than just turning action. Sabaki is much more purposeful than that.

Sabaki actually is taught in Judo. In Judo the term Sabaki is more specically called "Tai-Sabaki". Sabaki is using a turning action of the body. BUT it is a turning as it relates to a specific offensive or defensive move or technique.

Just moving your body or hands in circular motions randomly without rhyme or reason or purpose like Willie Oliver did isn't sabaki.

I know there are alot of examples of Sabaki in the martial art/combat art world BUT what Willie Oliver was doing just isn't an example of it.

The late great Kyuzo Mifune demostrated "sabaki" in the Judo documentary video.

Incidently MOST of Ninomiya's "Sabaki Method" came from three primary sources: his teacher Ashihara, his Judo experience, his Sumo experience.

[its_all_good]

I guess our interpretations for tai-sabaki could be a little different.I always understood that tai-sabaki simply meant body movements inorder to avoid a attack.

Now I know and I agree with you that most martial arts have their own interpetations of tai-sabaki. I am going on the definition that I learned as a youngster.Here is a description along the same lines of what I always thought the word tai-sabaki always stood for.

TAI SABAKI

Tai Sabaki [teye sa-ba'kee] can be translated in various ways. In many systems it refers to turning and/or evasion motions, while in other systems it can refer to body positioning. For us it means body movement, since we use it to describe all these elements. Basically, tai sabaki means moving ones body out of the way of an attack while at the same time placing oneself in a safe position where the attack can be countered.
Basic tai sabaki movements include:
Koshi Sabaki - concentrating on the placement of the hips and pelvis
Ashi Sabaki - concentrating on the placement of the feet and legs
Te Sabaki - concentrating on the placement of the arms and hands
Tenkah-ho - movement of pivoting the body
Tsugi Ashi - steps
Of the many elements related to training in the martial arts understanding and being able to execute proper tai sabaki is essential. No matter how many strikes, kicks, joint manipulations, or projections one may know they are useless if one is unable to get out of the way of an attacking limb, or is off balance when they try to counter an attack.

In order to execute proper tai sabaki several elements must occur. Initially one must start by being in a stable position which allows one the freedom of movement in any direction. Depending on the situation this may be one of the hardest factors in tai sabaki, since you may not have the opportunity to prepare for an attack.
Secondly, movements must be made with the proper weight distribution. Depending on the movement this can involve raising or lowering the body, forward or reverse motion, pivoting on the ball or heel of the foot, placing one's weight on one or both feet, or a combination of all of the above. In order to maintain proper weight distribution correct posture, foot placement, hip alignment and balance must be maintained. This can only be accomplished by practice.
Lastly, the body must stay aligned and movements should be limited to those necessary for the defensive action selected. In other words one must have and maintain control over their body in order not to make extra or none essential movements. While the intention and commitment of the movement must be made decisively, with strength, speed, and proper angles, it must be small and controlled enough not to create wasted space, or create weaknesses within the defense.

Now if I take that description above as the truth, then william oliver was doing some form of tai-sabaki.Is it the same sabaki method used or incorporated by ashihara or enshin? NO. Is it even the same exact tai-sabaki used in a classical sense to describe most traditional martial arts? probably not, but the body movements he used inorder to a avoid a attack is nonethless a form of tai-sabaki,atleast that is how I always understood it.

Maybe just maybe I've been wrong all these years.

[m.g]

IAG,

If you want to make the principle/term "sabaki" that general then yes Willie Oliver was doing sabaki.

Incidently I never said that Ashihara or even Ninomiya "created" sabaki. Sabaki is probably as old as the martial arts itself. Sure I am sure people were using some type of Sabaki.

But we're (at least I am) talking specific here. To imply what Willie Oliver was doing in some way was the same as what Ashihara and Ninomiya did is to over-generalize the matter in my opinion.

Willie was just trying to be "cute". He was doing his version of the Ali dance/shuffle along with what I call the Bruce Lee goodstep. It looked good but that's about it.

Sabaki is more than just evading punches, kicks etc. It is more than just "body movements in order to avoid a attack."

First off Sabaki can be both offensive and defensive so it is more than just "evading". Secondly the "purpose" of Sabaki is to put yourself in a position of advantage.

Here is an offensive example of Sabaki I use in Judo:

The opponent and I have left handed grips on each other (our left legs are forward; our left hands are grabbing each other's left collar; our right hands are grabbing the sleeve of each other's left arm).

I want to apply a harai tsurikomi ashi on the opponent's left leg. But in order to do this his left leg needs to be back, in the position we are currently in his left leg is forward.

I pull my opponent to his right using the combined effort of my left arm, hip and leg. This forces the opponent to bring his right leg forward, which means his left leg is back. This is what I want.

I then step around his right leg and attack his left leg with a harai tsurikomi ashi. The opponent is thrown.

This is just one example of "sabaki" used offensively.

What Ashihara and Ninomiya did in terms of using Sabaki was both offensive and defensive which, I dare say, alot of people in Karate were not doing.

[its_all_good]

MG writes,

But we're (at least I am) talking specific here. To imply what Willie Oliver was doing in some way was the same as what Ashihara and Ninomiya did is to over-generalize the matter in my opinion.

I thought I had made myself perfectly clear when I previously stated this.......

Is it the same sabaki method used or incorporated by ashihara or enshin? NO. Is it even the same exact tai-sabaki used in a classical sense to describe most traditional martial arts? probably not, but the body movements he used inorder to a avoid a attack is nonethless a form of tai-sabaki,atleast that is how I always understood it.

[m.g]

IAG,

Dude, I can read. I know what you're saying I am "trying" to tell you what I mean.

What I don't understand is out of all the words in my post why did you ignore this sentence:

"If you want to make the principle/term "sabaki" that general then yes Willie Oliver was doing sabaki."

I saying he is doing sabaki in the most general sense of the word.

What more do you want. Stop trying to pick a fight.

(Incidently why did you ignore this sentence as well:

"Sabaki is probably as old as the martial arts itself. Sure I am sure people were using some type of Sabaki.")

[its_all_good]

Mg writes,
Dude, I can read. I know what you're saying I am "trying" to tell you what I mean.

Listen bro,I really don't want to head down the same path that we did with the mayweather thread.I actually agree with everything you have said so far in this thread regarding ashihara and enshin.I think you gotta give people the benifit of doubt more often thou,instead of always implying like they seem clueless.If you know what I'm saying,then stop implying things that I have not said.

This is the majority of the reason why the mayweather thread headed down south.

[m.g]

IAG,

Dude, YOU are responding to MY post. YOU are taking bits and pieces of MY post and expressing whatever opinion you have on MY words. YOUR post beings MY words and follows with YOUR damn opinion of MY words. It is YOU who is doing the very thing YOU claim I am doing to you.

I'm not implying anything other than trying to clarify a point of mine which YOU, for whatever reason, decided to "discuss".

STOP quoting me. In fact STOP trying to involve me in however and whatever you feel about any subject.

I don't care what YOU think.

[its_all_good]

I don't care what YOU think

Apparently you cared somewhat to spend 5 damm long ass pages,disscussing BS with someone you could care less what they think about.

lol

STOP TRYING TO EDUCATE THE FUCKING PUBLIC.

[m.g]

IAG,

Face you just like to argue with me. You just want to "make a point" for the sake of making a point. You like to "selectively" read my post and make comments on what I say. I guess I entertain you. I guess I'm your hero. I mean you quote me so often you must look forward to what I say.

Furthermore this thread isn't about YOU and has nothing to do with YOU.

Of course your too stupid to realize others were involved in this thread way BEFORE you even threw in your worthless cents.

[Antonio_bustillo]

MG

Practically everything you described re Ashihara and Enshin is correct. Not sure why you think Ninomiya's skill is lacking though, I happen to believe he is excellent- karateka-wise. And if you thought his judo wasn't all that , why'd you stay doing judo w/ him for 6 years?

besides that....

The so-called "sabaki method" is an Ashihara/ Enshin thing, however, you were off thinking William Oliver wasn't doing a tai sabaki/ sabaki move.
AShiaha/ Enshin's "sabaki" is more intricate, true, nonetheless, this doesn't mean other styles aren't doing their form of tai sabaki as well.

[m.g]

Antonio Bustillo,

Did you fight in the Sabaki tournament? Your name sounds familiar.

Anyway let me make some clarifications. I didn't and don't think Ninomiya's skill were lacking, particularly Karate-wise. I'm not sure where you got that. I tried to make a true and honest assessment of my experience with Ninomiya

This is exactly what I said about Ninomiya as a Judoka:

"Ninomiya is a very good Judoka with excellent throwing skills. He has good newaza skills BUT he wasn't a very technical. What I mean by that is he didn't know nor have a hugh reportoire of ground techniques. The techniques he knew were fairly basic BUT he was very good with them. Nonetheless he was very limited in some situations because of his limited range of ground techniques. Like for example he only had and did one guard pass. Nothing fancy. It was effective but once you figured it out it was easy to counter. He was (and is) a very good instinctional grappler, meaning, he did alot of good and correct things based on instinct, based on knowing how to move and how to position himself and how to take advantage of the opponent's movements and positions. He is one of those types of people who learns simply from observation."

There were certain things Ninomiya wasn't familiar with BUT that doesn't mean I felt he wasn't good. He was damn good. And like I said even if he didn't know things he certainly was able to learn them very quickly simply from watching and observing others perform their technique.

I stayed with him at that time because he was the "best" Judoka around. Even though he didn't teach Judo in a very technical way he provided a structured learning environment that mirror how Judo is/was taught in Japan. The class was very small, only a handful of people. And one of the class members was an excellent Judoka himself who had over 20 years experience in the art (he had been doing Judo since he was a child).

As far as Willie Oliver goes...okay...maybe what he did was sabaki in the most general sense of the word I already stated that.

[Antonio_bustillo]

MG asked
"Did you fight in the Sabaki tournament? Your name sounds familiar."
Former Enshin branch chief instructor and re sabaki...it was before you fought H. Leon.
--note -I don't like the way they edit those fight tapes to favor Eenshin players.

re your comments on Ninomiya-got it.
Re his judo-got it.

MG , you wrote
"As far as Willie Oliver goes...okay...maybe what he did was sabaki in the most general sense of the word I already stated that."

A.B. --Right.

[its_all_good]

MG writes,

Face you just like to argue with me. You just want to "make a point" for the sake of making a point. You like to "selectively" read my post and make comments on what I say. I guess I entertain you. I guess I'm your hero. I mean you quote me so often you must look forward to what I say.

Actually if you go back and reread the Mayweather thread you will realize that you were the first one to rebutal or highlight my first comment,So in retrospect you started the argument with me first.In thinking that you were talking to a 17 year old instead of someone that's been involved with boxing for well over 25+ years,you continued to insult me like if i didn't know how to lace up a pair of gloves.

MG writes,
Furthermore this thread isn't about YOU and has nothing to do with YOU.

ofcourse not,it's about kyokushin and it's offshoot's something that I am familiar with for a very long time.The thread interest me point blank,I even own those old ashihara videos.You are not the only authority here on this subject.I don't care if you trained personaly with Mas oyama himself since childhood.

MG,
Of course your too stupid to realize others were involved in this thread way BEFORE you even threw in your worthless cents.

Now try something different go back a reread my very first post on this thread with a open mind and now tell me what you really disagree with?nothing right?but you still felt the need to insult/educate me one way or the other.By the way I am not trying to pick a fight with you,I have actually told you many times that I agreed with many of the things you have stated or written previously.I have been involved in the arts for well over 30 years,people can have differences of opinion without insulting one another for example your description of harai-trsurikomi-goshi and the entry being classified as a offensive tai-sabaki could be interpreted that way but I can also interpret it,as simply another form of kusushi.

Different people have different interpretations.I stoped trying to think that my way is the only way a long fucking time ago.The nickname "it's all good" is a testament to that.

[m.g]

IAG,

I'm ignoring your post. I'm not even going to take the time to read it. It is obvious you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of. I'm saying this FYI, so you won't be surprised that there is no response from me to your post.

Antonion Bustillo,

I thought your name was familiar. I agree that they do edit the tapes often in favor of the Enshin fighters. But what can I say, I think the tournament itself is a means/method of promoting Enshin.

What styles or martial arts do you do now? If I remember correctly you're into Bjj now, right?

Some of the guys that use to be instructors for Ninomiya have either started their own style or have devoted themselves to other martial arts. For example Paden Wolfe is now training in Bjj with Dave Ruiz like I am. We are both blue belts. Nobu Kishi, who had a Enshin school in Boulder started his own style.