What would you have to say about entering MMA without a wrestling backround? But if you have a judo, and ju-jitsu backround, but no wrestling backround?
Wrestling is not only good because it teaches great balance and body control, but it is the most physically demanding sport around. It trains its athletes to work incredibly hard and to be in amazing shape when compared to Judo or BJJ guys. A good work ethic is something that not everyone is taught, however its something im sure you can do if you want it bad enough. That being said, I would say to go learn some wrestling. Just because your gonna go against wrestlers and your gonna wanna know what moves their trying to use and why.
Alright thanks a lot!
Wet - Wrestling is not only good because it teaches great balance and body control, but it is the most physically demanding sport around. It trains its athletes to work incredibly hard and to be in amazing shape when compared to Judo or BJJ guys. A good work ethic is something that not everyone is taught, however its something im sure you can do if you want it bad enough. That being said, I would say to go learn some wrestling. Just because your gonna go against wrestlers and your gonna wanna know what moves their trying to use and why.
agree 100% not only that but wrestling teaches u how to compete in front of people (in spandex) which is a challenge for most people in general. the core and hip strength i developed from my HS wrestling has helped my game on the ground tremendously. Im not great at jiu jitsu but i can pin ya up against the cage and GnP cause of my wrestlin base. if god ever blesses me with a son im starting him off in a youth program ASAP
"It trains its athletes to work incredibly hard and to be in amazing shape when compared to Judo or BJJ guys."
I love wrestling, but you obviously have no experience with anyone competing at a decent level in either sport.
ya not true at all....judo is PROVING to be very effective in MMA. judo is underrated compared to wrestling and the takedowns are alot more brutal than a single or double leg unless its a hughes slam LOL
thePetester - "It trains its athletes to work incredibly hard and to be in amazing shape when compared to Judo or BJJ guys."
I love wrestling, but you obviously have no experience with anyone competing at a decent level in either sport.
You obviously dont know my background, because if you did then you would know how stupid a comment that is and how foolish you look for making it.
"You obviously dont know my background, because if you did then you would know how stupid a comment that is and how foolish you look for making it.
So, please enlighten us. With whom have you trained, in what setting, for how long? Have you traveled to Europe or Asia and competed in the international judo events and taken part in the training camps afterwards? Have you gone to Brazil and trained (not worked out with or under) any of the top ranked BJJ guys? I checked your profile and nothing is listed, you are a mudnamer like myself, etc. How would anyone know your 'background'?
Guys that compete at the top level in both sports are incredibly dedicated, talented athletes that are every bit as mentally tough as any wrestler.
If you took 100 random highschool wrestlers and 100 random highschool BJJ/JUDO students and tested them physically, almost all the wrestlers would be in better shape. I dont think thats even debatable.
^^^^^True.
Take 100 judo guys from Russia and 100 wrestlers from Russia and you'll find pretty much the same levels of strength, conditioning, and dedication. BJJ is different.
Don't compare US high school wrestlers to the recreational judo players in US.
"If you took 100 random highschool wrestlers and 100 random highschool BJJ/JUDO students and tested them physically, almost all the wrestlers would be in better shape. I dont think thats even debatable. "
HS wrestlers aren't going into MMA. And you are obviously only talking about the US, a very myopic (and bad) view of Judo and BJJ in high school. If you go to ANY European or Asian country the judo guys are going to be every bit as physically in shape as any of the wrestlers, and in some of those countries the judo guys will physically dominate the wrestlers. Why? Because judo is integrated into the school system and is more popular there. Much the same as the US wrestling paradigm you are using is here.
two different sports, two very different energy systems being used. apples & oranges.
freestyle wrestling is almost entirely anaerobic lactic-based action with some recovery moments in riding positions (aerobic).
judo is gripping and jockeying for position/pinning (aerobic) with explosive bursts of action (anaerobic alactic)
fact is "conditioning" is a relative term for your sport. both being "in shape" is relative to what each is in shape for regardless of what level they are at.
thePetester - "If you took 100 random highschool wrestlers and 100 random highschool BJJ/JUDO students and tested them physically, almost all the wrestlers would be in better shape. I dont think thats even debatable. "
HS wrestlers aren't going into MMA. And you are obviously only talking about the US, a very myopic (and bad) view of Judo and BJJ in high school. If you go to ANY European or Asian country the judo guys are going to be every bit as physically in shape as any of the wrestlers, and in some of those countries the judo guys will physically dominate the wrestlers. Why? Because judo is integrated into the school system and is more popular there. Much the same as the US wrestling paradigm you are using is here.
First off, its a fact that plenty off highschool wrestlers are going into MMA. I dont know why you would say they dont. 2nd, I am only talking about the U.S. because what they are doing in Asia is pretty irrelevant to the discussion we're having. My point, and i think you would agree, is that wrestlers here are mentally tougher and have a better work ethic because they are pushed very hard by coaches and clinics from an early age to be in great physical shape, while BJJ and JUDO schools focus mainly on technique. And from what ive seen, later on in their life (20's and 30's), the wrestlers push themselves harder than BJJ/JUDO guys in their workouts because their used to pushing their bodies to the limit. Now this isnt the case 100% of the time, but in my opinion, most of the time
"First off, its a fact that plenty off highschool wrestlers are going into MMA. I dont know why you would say they dont."
No more than COMPETITIVE BJJ players as a %. Most competitive judo people have one interest, the world/olympic team. You are starting to see some who have medaled at the top and are now making the switch. I honestly don't know how each one will do, but it is based on their strengths and weaknesses as far as fighting. Mentally, I have no question they will work as hard as anyone.
"2nd, I am only talking about the U.S. because what they are doing in Asia is pretty irrelevant to the discussion we're having."
No, it isn't. The question isn't only about the US. There are plenty of europeans and asians that are judo based that are going into mma. They are generally the guys that, for whatever reason, know that they won't make it in or back to the aforementioned level. I also brought it up, because you said I looked foolish saying you hadn't trained with any serious BJJ/JUDO guys. I am still waiting too see which guys you have trained with from each sport.
"My point, and i think you would agree, is that wrestlers here are mentally tougher and have a better work ethic because they are pushed very hard by coaches and clinics from an early age to be in great physical shape, while BJJ and JUDO schools focus mainly on technique." If you are talking hs wrestler vs rec judo/bjj guy that doesn't compete, yes. if you are talking wrestler vs competing judo/bjj guy, no. Judo clinics and camps are every bit as hard as wrestling clinics and camps. That is just a fact. We have had many guys come into our club, most of them break. The only ones who haven't have truly become very good judo guys. One was purely interested in mma. He has cross trained in judo and bjj and is already a very good fighter. He is training with a very well known mma team and I will not be surprised to see him in the UFC in another 3-5 years.
"And from what ive seen, later on in their life (20's and 30's), the wrestlers push themselves harder than BJJ/JUDO guys in their workouts because their used to pushing their bodies to the limit."
Most of the wrestlers that do this end up getting hurt within 6 months and quitting.
Listen, I love training with wrestlers, and I hate this debate. But, you are confusing competitve judo/bjj with guys that have never trained anything and just walk in off the street and start training, ie recreational guys. The average wrestler will that comes to our club and starts does train harder than the average guy that has never done anything competiteve like grappling before, but there really just isn't any difference between competitive grapplers of any kind.
thePetester - "First off, its a fact that plenty off highschool wrestlers are going into MMA. I dont know why you would say they dont."
No more than COMPETITIVE BJJ players as a %. Most competitive judo people have one interest, the world/olympic team. You are starting to see some who have medaled at the top and are now making the switch. I honestly don't know how each one will do, but it is based on their strengths and weaknesses as far as fighting. Mentally, I have no question they will work as hard as anyone.
"2nd, I am only talking about the U.S. because what they are doing in Asia is pretty irrelevant to the discussion we're having."
No, it isn't. The question isn't only about the US. There are plenty of europeans and asians that are judo based that are going into mma. They are generally the guys that, for whatever reason, know that they won't make it in or back to the aforementioned level. I also brought it up, because you said I looked foolish saying you hadn't trained with any serious BJJ/JUDO guys. I am still waiting too see which guys you have trained with from each sport.
"My point, and i think you would agree, is that wrestlers here are mentally tougher and have a better work ethic because they are pushed very hard by coaches and clinics from an early age to be in great physical shape, while BJJ and JUDO schools focus mainly on technique." If you are talking hs wrestler vs rec judo/bjj guy that doesn't compete, yes. if you are talking wrestler vs competing judo/bjj guy, no. Judo clinics and camps are every bit as hard as wrestling clinics and camps. That is just a fact. We have had many guys come into our club, most of them break. The only ones who haven't have truly become very good judo guys. One was purely interested in mma. He has cross trained in judo and bjj and is already a very good fighter. He is training with a very well known mma team and I will not be surprised to see him in the UFC in another 3-5 years.
"And from what ive seen, later on in their life (20's and 30's), the wrestlers push themselves harder than BJJ/JUDO guys in their workouts because their used to pushing their bodies to the limit."
Most of the wrestlers that do this end up getting hurt within 6 months and quitting.
Listen, I love training with wrestlers, and I hate this debate. But, you are confusing competitve judo/bjj with guys that have never trained anything and just walk in off the street and start training, ie recreational guys. The average wrestler will that comes to our club and starts does train harder than the average guy that has never done anything competiteve like grappling before, but there really just isn't any difference between competitive grapplers of any kind.
I disagree. I see many wrestlers jumping into MMA and being much more successful than BJJ guys, not only because wrestling connects to mma more than BJJ, but because they are typically in MUCH better shape. Just look at how fast wrestlers like Lesnar, Koscheck, and Rashad Evans, jumped into MMA and almost immediately were great fighters by just using their wrestling. You dont see that with many Judo or BJJ guys. In fact, whens the last time you saw a Judo practitioner even challenging for the belt.
I said that what they were doing in Asia was irrelevant to this conversation because the guy who started the thread said he was just starting out and therefor its not like he was gonna be traveling to other countries any time soon or having a fight against a foreign fighter.
Your remark that wrestlers in their 20's and 30's who push themselves harder than Judo/BJJ just end up getting hurt and quitting within 6 months is just dumb. I dont how you could even defend that statement. Is that how you train, at 70%? 80%? Are you serious? If thats the mentality of a "competitive Judo practitioner" then its no wonder why wrestlers are in such better shape
As for me "confusing competitive judo/bjj guys with guys with recreational guys" is just wrong. Have you even been to college wrestling match? If you have, look at the physique of those guys and then go to a no-gi grappling tournament of guys around the same age and look at the guys who specialize in just BJJ and Judo. HUGE difference.
And on a side note. Im not big on Judo to begin with because its basically an incomplete form of wrestling. Watch any wrestler who's good at greco and they do very well against judo guys because its a lot of the same stuff, only wrestlers have been trained to do it without using a gi, which is what you would be doing in an MMA fight anyway.
"I disagree. I see many wrestlers jumping into MMA and being much more successful than BJJ guys, not only because wrestling connects to mma more than BJJ, but because they are typically in MUCH better shape. Just look at how fast wrestlers like Lesnar, Koscheck, and Rashad Evans, jumped into MMA and almost immediately were great fighters by just using their wrestling. You dont see that with many Judo or BJJ guys. In fact, whens the last time you saw a Judo practitioner even challenging for the belt. "
You continually are changing your examples to support your argument. You go from HS wrestler to Lesnar and Koschek. This is ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to tell me Lesnar is the 'average' wrestler? Then I will put Fedor as the average judoka. You see it with plenty of Judo and BJJ guys, just not as much from the US. Some one on the judo forum made a list of all the former judo fighters who are now in mma. It was quite extensive, you can go check it out if you want.
"I said that what they were doing in Asia was irrelevant to this conversation because the guy who started the thread said he was just starting out and therefor its not like he was gonna be traveling to other countries any time soon or having a fight against a foreign fighter."
No, he didn't, and no matter how many times you say it, it isn't true.
"Your remark that wrestlers in their 20's and 30's who push themselves harder than Judo/BJJ just end up getting hurt and quitting within 6 months is just dumb."
Reading the paragraph, we may be talking about two different things here. I am talking a guy that wrestled in hs or even in college, quit for a number of years, and then attempts to comeback balls to the wall. They end up getting hurt more often than not.
"Have you even been to college wrestling match? If you have, look at the physique of those guys and then go to a no-gi grappling tournament of guys around the same age and look at the guys who specialize in just BJJ and Judo. HUGE difference. "
Again, you have a very myopic view of judo especially. People that compete in those judo/bjj tournaments you are referring to are often times 'recreational' judo/bjj guys. A local/state/regional tournament in the US is nothing like a hs or college judo match in europe or asia. If you put them all in shorts, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Go look up guys like Jeon, Stevens, Inoue, Lee, etc. They have every bit as impressive physiques as any wrestler.
"And on a side note. Im not big on Judo to begin with because its basically an incomplete form of wrestling. Watch any wrestler who's good at greco and they do very well against judo guys because its a lot of the same stuff, only wrestlers have been trained to do it without using a gi, which is what you would be doing in an MMA fight anyway."
One could easily say that about wrestling or BJJ as well for any number of reasons. I will again state that you have a very narrow view of judo (especially) and bjj and that is skewing your view of both.
And you never answered what 'high level' guys you have actually trained with in judo or bjj.
thePetester - "I disagree. I see many wrestlers jumping into MMA and being much more successful than BJJ guys, not only because wrestling connects to mma more than BJJ, but because they are typically in MUCH better shape. Just look at how fast wrestlers like Lesnar, Koscheck, and Rashad Evans, jumped into MMA and almost immediately were great fighters by just using their wrestling. You dont see that with many Judo or BJJ guys. In fact, whens the last time you saw a Judo practitioner even challenging for the belt. "
You continually are changing your examples to support your argument. You go from HS wrestler to Lesnar and Koschek. This is ridiculous. Are you seriously trying to tell me Lesnar is the 'average' wrestler? Then I will put Fedor as the average judoka. You see it with plenty of Judo and BJJ guys, just not as much from the US. Some one on the judo forum made a list of all the former judo fighters who are now in mma. It was quite extensive, you can go check it out if you want.
"I said that what they were doing in Asia was irrelevant to this conversation because the guy who started the thread said he was just starting out and therefor its not like he was gonna be traveling to other countries any time soon or having a fight against a foreign fighter."
No, he didn't, and no matter how many times you say it, it isn't true.
"Your remark that wrestlers in their 20's and 30's who push themselves harder than Judo/BJJ just end up getting hurt and quitting within 6 months is just dumb."
Reading the paragraph, we may be talking about two different things here. I am talking a guy that wrestled in hs or even in college, quit for a number of years, and then attempts to comeback balls to the wall. They end up getting hurt more often than not.
"Have you even been to college wrestling match? If you have, look at the physique of those guys and then go to a no-gi grappling tournament of guys around the same age and look at the guys who specialize in just BJJ and Judo. HUGE difference. "
Again, you have a very myopic view of judo especially. People that compete in those judo/bjj tournaments you are referring to are often times 'recreational' judo/bjj guys. A local/state/regional tournament in the US is nothing like a hs or college judo match in europe or asia. If you put them all in shorts, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Go look up guys like Jeon, Stevens, Inoue, Lee, etc. They have every bit as impressive physiques as any wrestler.
"And on a side note. Im not big on Judo to begin with because its basically an incomplete form of wrestling. Watch any wrestler who's good at greco and they do very well against judo guys because its a lot of the same stuff, only wrestlers have been trained to do it without using a gi, which is what you would be doing in an MMA fight anyway."
One could easily say that about wrestling or BJJ as well for any number of reasons. I will again state that you have a very narrow view of judo (especially) and bjj and that is skewing your view of both.
And you never answered what 'high level' guys you have actually trained with in judo or bjj.
I only changed my example from highschool to pro's because YOU were trying to base your argument based on elite fighters, which is pretty pointless since it doesnt make sense to focus on 1% of the Judo/BJJ practictioners to make a point. Thats like trying to say the Chinese are as tall as Americans because our Olympic basketball teams are the same height. But i did it anyways to state that even at an elite level the wrestlers are more likely to be in better physical shape.
And i really dont care about a list of how many judo guys are in MMA. I asked you when the last time one of them even challenge for the belt. Compare that to how many wrestlers are competeing for the belt. Not to mention Judo/JJ has been popular in Asia for a VERY long time, where they have BILLIONS of people. Yet the small percentage of wrestlers in the U.S. have quickly picked up on the sport and done much better.
And arguing with me over whether a noob (no offense) with ZERO mma experience is going to travel the world to fight is another one of your statements where you're so desperate to be right that you will throw all common sense and rationality out the window, and look dumb doing it. It makes me wonder if i should even consider continuing a discussion with you. Seriously, stop bullshitting. And your theory about wrestlers getting injured also falls into that category.
Again, i dont think your understanding my point. At the elite stage in Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, MMA, or Water Polo, whatever sport, everyone is going to be in great shape because they are doing it for a living and their careers depend on it. What my original point was that ALL wrestlers are developed better from a young age to push themselves harder than any other sport, far more than BJJ or Judo, and therefor are going to take with them their work ethic into MMA. While Judo and BJJ guys (Judo more) have to learn to get into getting the absolute most out of their bodies and training sessions, which AGAIN is why there are so many successful wrestlers in MMA. There are many average wrestlers who can skate by for a while on their conditioning in MMA, while Judo guys need every bit of talent they have because they dont seem to be in peak shape. Brock Lesnar is a good example. Yes, i know he was a national champion in college but with every aspect that can be used in MMA, he's a very limited fighter, but he's still dominant. If you put brock lesnars fighting skills into Satoshi Ishii body, he wouldnt be good enough to step foot in the UFC.
"Again, i dont think your understanding my point. "
I do understand your point, we are arguing under two different sets of parameters.
I tried to tell you that 6 posts ago..