A thumb in the trachea choke could lead to some serious damage and could be used from the positioning descibed earlier in the thread.
Scuffler,
Thumb in the trachea? Could you elaborate?
Just work like a fist choke but extend a thumb into the soft spot on the throat. Can be done from behing using a cup grip to allow for some nice leverage too.
Jason,
I concede that occlusion of the trachea by blunt trauma (strikes or crushing by the forearm) is a possibility: Arrichion, essentially mortally wounded by the damage, remains conscious long enough to submit his opponent; only then does he pass out and expire. But can we adduce any examples of this in modern forensic literature?
You cited Gunther above to substantiate that damage to the airway can cause it to swell up and shut off air flow; but Gunther herself says that a good tracheal compression position would also pinch off the carotids and make the victim pass out. Keep the choke after he passes out, and sure, you'll manage to compress his trachea and perhaps damage it and make it swell up so that it cuts off his air even after the choke is released.
The point is that I'd like to see at least one documented case in forensic literature of an instance where some kind of manual blunt trauma to the throat led to a crushing or swelling that resulted in the death of the victim even after compression of the throat ceased.
I'll keep everybody posted on what I find out.
DuckofDeath-
You've already seen some cites, I guess I can dig them out again for everyone else if you like, but the medical mechanics isn't really the point in my book as much as the philosophical point. I think, as a general rule, it is poor science to seek out less plausible theories when more plausible ones are obvious and unexplored. So I guess my problem really does come from the Occam's Razor side.
I think the article may have been useful to raise the medical theory as a discussion point, but I don't think the little evidence we have fits the medical theory very well.There are plenty of documented deaths with trauma to the throat, whether the direct mechanism be damage to the throat, that plus the hogtie position, or other causes. I don't know how many places actually practice air chokes, as they are less useful, but if you have, I'm sure you have had the experience of having a sore throat for days afterward, so obviously some trauma is occurring to the throat just in those minor compressions.
I take your point about Gunther, but I think she is looking at it from a clinical perspective. In a high energy, highly skilled fight environment, one where winning was more important than competing, I don't find it unlikely that an air choke could have been forced on rough enough to do damage, but fought off or moved around enough to not put Arrichion out immediately.
P.S.- Welcome to the forum. Please also take a look at my comments on the Dux thread.
Jason
Jason,
Thanks for the comments on the Dux thread; I managed to get a quick look before the thread was deleted. Regretfully, I didn't have time to reply and to delete a couple of inflammatory posts directed at jonwell. At least when jonwell reads this, he'll know that it was my intention to go back and delete them. And ONCE AGAIN, I want to make it crystal clear that I would very much welcome jonwell's participation in the new thread.
I'm still mulling over the choke business and the issue of Arrichions's age that you brought up. Hope to post more on that soon.
scuffler,
Ancient artists sometimes did misrepresent the action in combat sports. A prime example is shown in illustration no. 23, p. 37 of Poliakoff's Combat Sports in the Ancient World (1987). On a Greek vase, Theseus is shown with a front headlock clinch around Kerkyon's neck and right arm. Although Theseus should have his right arm against the left side of Kerkyon's neck, the artist shows him with his left arm against the left side of Kerkyon's neck. The blunder sails right over the clueless Poliakoff's head.
Bludhall,
The move you're thinking of is the klimakismos, and it was a specialty of the Eleans.
You might be interested in these, even though they are written primarily with Judo in mind, they deal with strangulation and chokes in general:How safe is choking in Judo?This goes over many cases of strangulation deaths, many caused accidentally by law enforcement officers.This may not be as relavent, but this article shows a study of volunteers who were choked out (blood, obviously) and medically monitored while unconcious:Danger in the Judo Choke?This is a doctor's description of what physically happens to the body during a choke:The safety of Judo Chokes
Owen,
Thanks for the sources; I know there are many more of them out there in the literature. My request, though, was specifically limited by the qualifier "manual" in its literal sense of "with the hands/arms," so as to more approximate Arrichion's experience. Lunatic beat me to the punch in citing the Koiwai article, which I will address later.
When you were an EMT, did you ever encounter a case of a "hot epiglottis"? I've heard that if you don't get a tube in them quick, the epiglottis can swell up like a big cork and kill them like that.
Finally, your football experience is instructive. Suppose for a moment that you were one of those unfortunate youngsters with a congenital heart defect that could be triggered into some kind of heart stoppage by extreme physical exertion. You're in a tough game, you collide,--there's your extreme physical exertion--and on top of all that, you have the additional pain and discomfort of a chin strap rammed into your throat. Your heart flubs up, stops beating, and you die. Now if this happened decades ago in some little town where no pathologist was available to do an autopsy, don't you think that people might say, "Poor kid. Got hit hard in the throat. Must have killed him."?
Lunatic,
Thanks for the sources; I was already familiar with the Koiwai article from the bjj.org site.
Although the Koiwai article does deal with manual chokes, the victims for the most part were hopped up, mentally disturbed individuals involved in confrontational situations with law enforcement personnel. Although there were mentions of deaths due to "compression of the neck," there was no specific mention of the trachea or larynx being irreparably occluded by trauma. (The bjj.org article notes that the autopsy findings themselves were omitted from the versions of the article circulating on martial arts sites; I'll try to lay hands on the full article with the autopsy findings.) It's interesting to note that the "reported cause of death" clauses in cases 7, 10, and 13 mention three different kinds of heart disease. How much did their bad tickers have to do with the demise of the decedents?
Finally, I want to direct your attention to this statement by Dr. Koiwai: "A survey made by this author in 1979, based on a questionnaire to all International Judo Federation (IJF) country members, revealed that although there were 19 judo fatalities, none was due to shime-waza." Well, if shime-waza didn't do them in, what did? Did they all get pitched on their heads and break their necks and fracture their skulls? Or did some of them just drop dead in the midst of their exertions against their opponents? Did some drop dead while in the midst of successfully defending against shime-waza? Did subsequent autopsies reveal that any of them had hearts that acted up while they were exerting themselves? I'll try to get ahold of the good doctor and find out about this.
Bludhall,
I remember the klimakismos business from some book or article I perused long before the Arvinitis book came out. I'll try to run down the primary sources for you; I think your online catalog of techniques is a great idea.
For those that haven't seen it yet:
Reay and Eisele. Death From Law Enforcement Neck Holds, American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology.September 1982. Vol. 3, No.3; pg 253-258.
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB/1982neckholds.html
Ah, Jason the link master!
I was looking up and down my favorites menu for that link and couldn't find it.
Duck,
As far as I know, many law enforcement choke-hold deaths are due to the officer using a nightstick or forearm directly across the trachea, causing trauma there and making it swell. Apparently, with enough force, the trachea can split or fracture and the swelling caused there after is obviously life threatening.
Choking across the trachea can be very dangerous, as opposed to lining your elbow up under the chin of the victim, thereby squeezing the carotids and taking most of the direct, perpendicular pressure off the trachea. This cuts off blood, lowers the blood pressure to the head and causes a knock-out reflex to kick in.
Of course, if someone has a heart problem, I believe this can be dangerous as well.
Actually, the link Jason provided goes over all of that in great detail.
Jason,
Thanks for posting the link to the Reay and Eisele article with its two case studies. For those not familiar with the article, case 1 and case 2 in Reay and Eisele correspond to cases 13 and 14 in the Koiwai article, but give greater detail and good illustrations. Although the victims both suffered fractures to the left cornu--a horn-like projection on the side of the thyroid cartilage--neither had occluded airways. In case 1, "no other anatomic findings of note were present." In case 2, "the hyoid was intact" and "there were no other significant autopsy findings."
Lunatic,
What continues to bother me about the Arrichion story is that he was "with it" enough to hang on to the ankle and get the submission without blacking out, only to die suddenly when the opponent "tapped" and presumably immediately released the choke. If the choke is what did Arrichion in, it would mean that his airway must have been smashed so flat or swollen so much that he wasn't able to suck air through it once the choke was released.
Although that is a possibility, it would be more credible if it could be corroborated by a modern analogue. What if there were a case study out there that read something like this: "The subject was subdued by a forearm choke applied from behind by a police officer. After a prolonged struggle, the subject extricated himself from the choke and then collapsed. The subject was pronounced dead at the scene, and the cause of death was later found to be asphxia due to completely occluded airway caused by blunt trauma to the throat." Now if I were to come across something like that, I'd jump up, shout eureka, and exclaim, "That's what happened to Arrichion!"
That's all I'm asking for, Lunatic--just one measly documented case of something like that happening. Now that's not much to ask, is it?
That's all I'm asking for, Lunatic--just one measly documented case of something like that happening. Now that's not much to ask, is it?DuckofDeath-Again, back to the science. The problem is that you have it exactly backwards- you are trying to shift the burden of proof. You are the one making the new claim that goes against the weight of authority and doesn't quite fit the facts. It is therefore your duty to convince us, rather than the other way around.BTW, I think you are skewing the facts in your example, too. All we really know is that Arrichion was being choked, cranked an ankle, and died at some point. People get choked, some die. Cause of death: the choke. That's the way of the world. See case 2 in Reay and Eisele for an example of that. The burden is not on us to trot out all cases of strangulation, rather the burden is on you to show that there are plenty of cases where someone getting choked dropped dead from a congenital heart condition that had nothing to do with getting choked, but was instead brought about simply by exertion.I'm a pretty reasonable person: you do that, and I will revise my opinion. The problem is I don't think you will find that, I think at best you'll find that people may go into cardiac arrest because you are choking them, and that pre-existing heart conditions can contribute to that.Jason
Bludhall,
Did the wrestler give you the choke throat or did the guillotine give you the choke throat?
Owen,
The "hot epiglottis" is a rare kind of sudden inflammation; I've heard that doctors are so skittish about setting it off that they won't even stick a tongue depressor in the mouth of those known to be afflicted. I brought that up in addition to your bee sting example as another example of a highly unlikely, but yet not totally impossible, thing that could unexpectedly do someone in.
What did you mean about the bruising? That you didn't bruise, or that the hypothetical kid who collapsed and expired wouldn't have had any bruising?
Bludhall,
A "must have" source for your online catalog is E. Norman Gardiner, "The Pankration and Wrestling," The Journal of Hellenic Studies, vol. 26 (1906), pp. 4-22. The klimakismos is discussed on pp. 15-19.