I've been pondering Eddie Bravo's hypothesis that there is a difference between submission ability in the gi and without the gi.
On one side, you have guys that are famously demons without the gi that are good but unexceptional with it: Baret Yoshida and Marcello Garcia spring immediately to mind.
On the other hand, there are guys that have proven submission ability both with and without the gi: Royler Gracie, Saulo Riberio, Mario Sperry.
Can people who are better informed give some input? What I'm looking for are people are submission machines in either gi or no-gi and noting how many are good in only one area and how many are good in both.
This should exclude those that go for mainly position and don't focus on subs though. I think we are all more or less agreed that position control works very similarly in a gi/no-gi context. E.g. Marcio Feitosa, Ricardo Arona. No disrespect to these guys though; Feitosa, in particular, is a hero of mine- he just isn't obsessive about submissions.
I would hardly describe someone who dominates Renzo and then puts Shaolin to sleep in like 10 seconds as 'unexceptional'.
That was without Gi.
I meant unexceptional with the gi. Marcello Garcia is pretty much the undisputed best no-gi grappler in his weight class at the moment.
By exceptional, I would mean a Mundial black belt champion...
Oops you got me, I read it wrong.
I heard Garcia is amazing with the Gi as well. In fact he only took off his gi to train for ADCC, so Bravo's theory on him isnt necessarily correct.
Is that my theory?
Well....... this is what I really mean,
It takes years to master submission set ups with the gi. Faking collar chokes to get an arm bar, pulling on sleeves to set up a triangle or oma plata etc.
Playing tug-o-war with karate uniforms takes a long time to perfect.
Now, the same goes for no-gi jiu jitsu, it takes years to master submission set ups without the gi.
Using head control to set up arm bars and oma platas, using overhooks to set up triangles etc.
If you're spending 90% of your time training with the gi, well...., you're probably not going to be known for your submission ability without the the gi.
That's why most Mundial champs aren't dazzling the world with their submission skills in no-gi/mma events.
Out of ALL the top Mundial competitors at last years Abu Dhabi, only Marcello Garcia showed that he knows how to submit top level grapplers without the gi.
The bottom line is that if you want to train in the gi, do it then.
But don't ever believe anyone that tells you that it's important to train with the gi in order to be good without it. Do I have to keep bringing up Saku, Horn, Hallman, and F. Shamrock again.
One of my students, Beast Ozinga, has been training a total of 7 months and has never put on a gi and he triangles most of his opponents he faces in tournaments.
Of course there's a shitload of guys out there that have never grappled with the gi and still suck at no-gi tournaments, like some of the Luta Livre guys.
It helps to have an instructor who is known for his no-gi attacks, most people can't just figure it out on their own.
For me and my students it's pretty simple, we just like the fast game of no-gi jiu jitsu, that's all. The gi game is just way too slow for us.
Garcia took 2nd in the World this year with the gi and didnt take the gi off until days before the ADCC.
Royler and Leozinho are another examples. Saulo and Xandre also train 90% gi and they kicked ass at the last ADCC. I believe most champions in the last ADCC were primarily gi guys.
Eddie,
What are Jean-Jacques thoughts on the matter? Thanks
yeah but Sak and Frank are Catch Wrestlers, no can defend
I'm fairly certain that Mark Kerr is better without the gi.
"For me and my students it's pretty simple, we just like the fast game of no-gi jiu jitsu, that's all. The gi game is just way too slow for us."
I feel the same way. Gi is WAY to slow...
Eddie has overhooked the correct and put it to sleep.
nice
I heard Eddie and all his students toke up during class.
LOL @ trainwreck
"eddie, didn't you train 8+ years with the gi?"
I trained with Eddie at Jean Jacques off and on from 97 to early 2000. The time Eddie spent in the gi dwindled as he gained more experience. When I first met him, he had trained in Jiu-Jitsu two years, and he sparred all the time in the Gi. Then in 99, he would do drills in the Gi, but as soon as sparring began, the gi came off. It's been like that ever since. Also, 99 was when he started developing the beginings of the rubber guard stuff. It was in its embryonic stages, but once he started going no-gi consisantly is when I noticed his game get drastically better. I may be leaving certain things out, and I'm sure Eddie will fill in the blanks once he responds, but that's my recollection of it.
"Garcia took 2nd in the World this year with the gi and didnt take the gi off until days before the ADCC. Royler and Leozinho are another examples. Saulo and Xandre also train 90% gi and they kicked ass at the last ADCC. I believe most champions in the last ADCC were primarily gi guys."
"Royler, and Sperry. Pe de Pano is good gi or no gi, but couldn't take the Absolute or, more recently, Monson. Terere was good enough no gi to beat Serra and take 3rd in the Pro Ams. Nino Schembri showed good submission work in ADCC and he's a mundial champ."
I said that there are "very few Mundial competitors that finish their opponents at a high rate without the gi". I'm talking about SUBMISSIONS, not winning on points.
Am I wrong? Is there really like 30 or 40 Mundial competitors out there that are tapping people out left and right without the gi? Name'em.
The reality is that there's 5 or less.
Once again, I'll repeat myself, I'm talking about SUBMISSIONS, not winning on points.
"Eddie, What are Jean-Jacques thoughts on the matter? Thanks"
He thinks that the gi is necessary, but I don't.
"eddie, didn't you train 8+ years with the gi?"
Yes, but if it would've been 8 years+ with a hooded sweat shirt, I would have been the same grappler. It's not what you wear that makes you, it's the way you actually grapple.
eddiebravo is exceedingly correct on this issue.
dont argue with eddie, i agree with eddie