I seems that in Europe, you have Wing Chun/Tsun stylists doing MMA competitions.
So let's look at what they are doing...
Two videos:
Now, I've only trained in JKD influenced WC for about a month, can someone tell me where the WC is in this videos?
Kai,
I would be glad to tell you, but it's obivious that you have not earned the right from your sifu to be considered part of the yup sut in your kwoon. If you had, you would be able to see the very obvious applications of the concepts of the sacred biu gee form.
Sorry.
C'mon Kai, it was right in front of your nose!
Let me break it down for you.
The first match was classic WT. In fact, that is exactly what it looks like when a Chinese Buddhist nun goes up against an average MMA fighter.
And the second match showed a textbook example of a WT guard pass. Nevermind that it ended in a triangle, if the gloves had been off....
John
Damn...
I know this was a partially trolling post, but I just don't get it.
We have these WT fighters in there, using the same techniques that everyone else does in the ring.
Frankl: There's so much to be learned from these youtube videos.
I'm still wondering what a Double Leg, Right Hook and Guard pass are called in WT.
You want it in Mandarin or Cantonese? Wade-Giles or Pinyin?
John
Do you want the description from Bozetempe or Chung?
Everyone is MMA fighting nowadays. Heck, try to find the boxing in this brawl between Ali and Frazier at the ABC studios!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t5uqVYZJmeY
Couple of seasons of TUF, now EVERYONE thinks they can do MMA. Weird how unoriginal some people can be.
..................now EVERYONE thinks they can do MMA.
(Sung to the tune: "Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting")
Everybody was MMA figthing, those cats were fast as lighting, in fact is was a lil bit frightening..........
Naw, it just dont sound right. Showing my age, aint I.
About the Ali-Frazier scuffle, it has been added to many threads as evidence for one argument or another. But I see it as pretty good "boxing" by Ali.
In the clip shown, less than a full round, the two fighters clinched multiple times. In fact, clinching is such a huge part of many boxing matches that one of the ref's primary duties is simply to break up clinches so that fans can see big punches thrown from long distances. Fans want to see knockouts. Many fighters would be content to hold and/or fight from the clinch.
Once it was clear to Ali that Frazier was not "clowning" (please note that even Cosell, on the scene, was not sure if they were merely hamming it up, and later says he thinks Ali is, but Frazier is not), Ali simply clinches and drags Frazier down, totally nullifying his ability to punch.
Before we jump to saying that this proves something about professional boxers in a "real" situation not using boxing, let's think. What were Ali's other options? A slugfest in a TV studio while wearing a nice suit and being payed big money. As Cosell mentioned, Ali was simply playing to the cameras, and trying to get Frazier riled, which he did a bit too well. Once that happened, he used a key part of boxing--the clinch/tie up--to shut down an angry and ureasonable opponent.
And he did this very effectively in my book. BTW, my book is all about not losing high-paying TV gigs, going to jail, getting sued, breaking my hand, ruining expensive suits, getting hit in the face by enraged boxers, and things like that.
John
John:
Like I said in a previous post, people see things through their own prisms.
You forget to point out that they also went to the ground. It's hard to see on the youtube video, but, Ali flops to open guard, where Frazier briefly stands over him until he's pulled off. I've trained with all types of boxers, and I've never seen this move done. EVER.
BTW: I think I saw a bear use a similar clinch/tactic when it fought a wolverine on National Geographic. Bears are famous for their boxing.
The point that people tend to miss when these examples are brought into a discussion is that the very nature of unbridled, unsanctioned combat often leads to a breakdown of the conditioned response, simply because of how the nervous system is built. It's beyond discussion of style and training method, but rather about how our nervous system has these hard-wired programs in our bodies.
A conditioned response (20 years of boxing, judo, bjj, etc.) tends to give way to the instinctive response (sprinting, swinging, flinching, covering up, grabbing, pushing, pulling, etc.) because of how hard-wired these responses are to the fight/flight/freeze response. In other words, you can train a jab or a high-single from now until doomsday, but if a stimulus causes adrenaline dump, catalyzing the fight/flight/freeze response, the body will revert to these hard-wired responses. This is the nature of the nervous system, and this is how our species has survived over several million years.
And this is why there are so many examples of boxers not using the jab/cross/uppercut/hook/shoeshine/philly shell...when the perennial $hit hits the fan: genetically hard-wired responses overtake them in a fight/flight situation.
This is why, in the long-run, these long-winded discussions about style add up to nothing, because a biochemical response in our bodies will override all that training. Boxing, wing chun, TKD, hung gar...all reduced to grabbing, falling, shoving. Combat, as one man pointed out, is simpler (biochemically at that) than most people would like it to be.
"A slugfest in a TV studio while wearing a nice suit..."
I don't completely buy that, because of how boxing news conferences have gone down over the years (Barrera/Morales, and the infamous Lewis/Tyson news conference) with people actually throwing left hooks, along with shoving, falling on the ground, and biting.
"The point that people tend to miss when these examples are brought into a discussion is that the very nature of unbridled, unsanctioned combat often leads to a breakdown of the conditioned response"
reaching out and clinching Joe Frazier or any other shorter & stronger slugger has always been a conditioned response for a Ali. watch any of their fights. Ali was probably one of the best in the world at jab/double-jab/one-two to Single neck tie ... and sometimes snapdown. and HE doesn't flop to guard, Frazier tackles him out of his aggression and forward momentum - which you can argue, with Fraziers fighting style and lack of confined space and third party clinch-breaker, was simply his conditioned response as well.
"I don't completely buy that, because of how boxing news conferences have gone down over the years (Barrera/Morales, and the infamous Lewis/Tyson news conference) with people actually throwing left hooks, along with shoving, falling on the ground, and biting."
no denying that. but Ali/Frazier, despite that tussle IMO were from a different era. nowadays, many pro-athletes subscribe to an urban-thug image/persona, and just in terms being in front of a camera, we are still living in a post Jerry Springer sensationalistic media society.
"reaching out and clinching Joe Frazier or any other shorter & stronger slugger has always been a conditioned response for a Ali."
It's also a response for a grizzly bear when it attacks another creature. Grabbing/clinching can be seen in many untrained creatures when in combat.
There's a reason why you'll never see an untrained thug, a grizzly bear, or Muhammad Ali throw a jab/cross when the adrenal response occurs: the nervous system defaults to the instinctive response.
Again, we see what we want to see.
As for wing chun in MMA, just a few thoughts:
People with limited understanding of the art will look for siu nim tao in those clips, or some uniform, or a compound trap.
Wing chun, much like bagua and xingyi, is about developing structure/alignment (from a skeletal and muscular perspective), and sensory perception (neuromuscular perspective). These are things you won't see.
Some may argue "that's revisionist", but that's only because their experience is limited.
"There's a reason why you'll never see an untrained thug, a grizzly bear, or Muhammad Ali throw a jab/cross when the adrenal response occurs: the nervous system defaults to the instinctive response."
are you speaking about Ali in particular and/or the use of a straight punches in particular?? because even though we didn't see the street altercation between Mitch Green and Mike Tyson, only the aftermath, it was pretty evident from Tyson's broken hand and Green's broken face, that there was more than just an instinctive response in that fight.
4 Ranges: I'm trying to understand what you are saying, but...
Answer a question for me, if you could?
What is a double leg, right hook and guardpass called in Wing Chun?
Your answer echo's the whole "we're teaching you muscle memory" argument that I watched Thornton dissect. Muscle Memory doing what exactly?
I still think a person should train like they fight and fight like they train.
Kai:
"What is a double leg, right hook and guardpass called in Wing Chun?"
Here's my answer to you: what style teaches the double leg, right hook, guardpass?
"Your answer echo's the whole "we're teaching you muscle memory""
That's called an "earworm" in neuroscience: you hear something so many times you hear it everywhere you go. That echo is in your head...
Christian:
The use of straight punches. Swinging is a more instinctive response than straight punching. This is why Edwin Haislet refers to straight punching as:
"The ability to hit straight from the shoulder is not a natural act."
And from the accounts of heard, Tyson hit him with an overhand right (a swinging punch).
"The ability to hit straight from the shoulder is not a natural act."
And from the accounts of heard, Tyson hit him with an overhand right (a swinging punch)."
AGREED! but i would still have to argue that its a different thing coming from a trained athlete who has honed that particular tool and used in countless times (in Tyson's case) in a different, albeit more controlled environment (not always, in Tyson's case :) to acheive the same result.
also - Rocky Balboa used multiple jabs in his street altercation with Tommy Gunn over a decade ago!!