Fedor's Legacy

Underground
22

HELWIG -  Im gonna have to drop by again in a bit and dish out more "youre lost"s.......

The best shit ever is how know-nothing morons have this fantasy that there were secret, mythical HWs that Fedor needed to fight to prove himself and avoided. Yet when you look at the rankings there werent. Nog and CC were the best at that time. Since then the UFC crop hasnt been that hot. Couture is barely keeping his head above water, Brock has looked atrocious, Carwin has ? marks and Mir has been brutalized in 2 out of his last 3. Cain and JDS are hot shit at the moment.

People just dont get it.


How come you can retroactively downgrade Couture, Brock, Carwin, etc based on how they have looked in their most recent fights, as opposed to when people wanted Fedor to fight them, but whenever anyone does that about any of Fedor's opponents -- even the many who had looked bad GOING INTO their fights with him -- you and Fedorblower start going into conniptions?

This is the problem with Fedor's competition since the Crocop fight in 2005:

The #1 guy should be fighting the guy who is the next best guy, or the guy out there who might be the best. That's not Sylvia -- he had lost two of his last three. It's not Arlovski -- poor chin, stopped many times by strikes, no great performances against a good heavy in his ENTIRE CAREER with the sole exception of the first Sylvia fight. It's not Rogers, a guy with a hugely limited skillset and no experience in the big leagues. It's not Werdum, a guy with several losses who had shown no real signs of improvement or evolution (I think we all agree it's not Werdum, as evidenced by the fact that even after BEATING Fedor, he has not been ranked #1 by virtually any of the sources you guys love to cite as authorities when talking up Fedor's "big wins" of the past). And obviously it's not Lindland, HMC, Hunt, etc.

It could be Overeem. He's physically an entirely different fighter than he used to be and has has stellar performances in MMA and K-1 the past couple years.

It could have been Brock, before his loss obviously. A monster on paper and showing great athleticism and constant improvement, training with top guys.

It could have been Carwin, an undefeated wrestling behemoth with huge KO power who trained with the most successful team in MMA.

It could be JDS, a guy with only one long ago loss, who trains with some of the best fighters ever and has excellent standup, power, and chin.

It could of course be Cain, still undefeated, a top wrestler with endless cardio, speed to match Fedor's, and excellent standup.

But instead, we see Fedor for the last five years fighting guys who have already been "exposed", to put it uncharitably if mostly accurately. In fact other than Nog and Crocop, ALL of his opponents since god-knows-who have fallen into that category. Crocop lost to Nog, but as Fedorblower loves to point out, Crocop then went on a tear and seemed more motivated and skilled then ever, including outgrappling Barnett. Not to beat a dead horse, but Coleman had been "exposed" many times; Schilt had shown little signs of improvement since his various losses; and see above for the more recent opponents. NONE of his opponents except Nog and Crocop have had, going into their fights with him, ANY "consensus" belief or expectation that they "might be the best", and OFTEN, they weren't even the best fighters (according to the all-important "consensus") that were available to him.

So that's the complaint.

Holy Christmas FRAT.

Merry Christmas Helwig. By the way, I wonder if you'll continue to Bear False Witness against me on your Lord's day? :P

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fedor is the greatest fighter in the history of the sport in absolute terms.

however, he needs to grow up and start fighting people.

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Guys all this "this guy that guy" or "evolution" talk is garbage. Fedor has 32 fking unanswered wins spanning over a decade in multiple rule formats and has only ever made one costly mistake in his entire career that resulted in an armbar against against a guy he dominates.

His legacy is sealed. There is a misconception in MMA that if ""A" can beat "B", and "B" can beat "C" then "A" can also beat "C". It doesn't work that way. And Fedor beats everybody he faces (barring one mistake in his career). Phone Post

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orcus - 

How come you can retroactively downgrade Couture, Brock, Carwin, etc based on how they have looked in their most recent fights, as opposed to when people wanted Fedor to fight them, but whenever anyone does that about any of Fedor's opponents -- even the many who had looked bad GOING INTO their fights with him -- you and Fedorblower start going into conniptions?

This is the problem with Fedor's competition since the Crocop fight in 2005:

The #1 guy should be fighting the guy who is the next best guy, or the guy out there who might be the best. That's not Sylvia -- he had lost two of his last three. It's not Arlovski -- poor chin, stopped many times by strikes, no great performances against a good heavy in his ENTIRE CAREER with the sole exception of the first Sylvia fight. It's not Rogers, a guy with a hugely limited skillset and no experience in the big leagues. It's not Werdum, a guy with several losses who had shown no real signs of improvement or evolution (I think we all agree it's not Werdum, as evidenced by the fact that even after BEATING Fedor, he has not been ranked #1 by virtually any of the sources you guys love to cite as authorities when talking up Fedor's "big wins" of the past). And obviously it's not Lindland, HMC, Hunt, etc.

It could be Overeem. He's physically an entirely different fighter than he used to be and has has stellar performances in MMA and K-1 the past couple years.

It could have been Brock, before his loss obviously. A monster on paper and showing great athleticism and constant improvement, training with top guys.

It could have been Carwin, an undefeated wrestling behemoth with huge KO power who trained with the most successful team in MMA.

It could be JDS, a guy with only one long ago loss, who trains with some of the best fighters ever and has excellent standup, power, and chin.

It could of course be Cain, still undefeated, a top wrestler with endless cardio, speed to match Fedor's, and excellent standup.

But instead, we see Fedor for the last five years fighting guys who have already been "exposed", to put it uncharitably if mostly accurately. In fact other than Nog and Crocop, ALL of his opponents since god-knows-who have fallen into that category. Crocop lost to Nog, but as Fedorblower loves to point out, Crocop then went on a tear and seemed more motivated and skilled then ever, including outgrappling Barnett. Not to beat a dead horse, but Coleman had been "exposed" many times; Schilt had shown little signs of improvement since his various losses; and see above for the more recent opponents. NONE of his opponents except Nog and Crocop have had, going into their fights with him, ANY "consensus" belief or expectation that they "might be the best", and OFTEN, they weren't even the best fighters (according to the all-important "consensus") that were available to him.

So that's the complaint.

Holy Christmas FRAT.

Merry Christmas Helwig. By the way, I wonder if you'll continue to Bear False Witness against me on your Lord's day? :P





SHUT UP, JUST SHUT UP. GO HOME.

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rockwell - 
orcus - 

How come you can retroactively downgrade Couture, Brock, Carwin, etc based on how they have looked in their most recent fights, as opposed to when people wanted Fedor to fight them, but whenever anyone does that about any of Fedor's opponents -- even the many who had looked bad GOING INTO their fights with him -- you and Fedorblower start going into conniptions?

This is the problem with Fedor's competition since the Crocop fight in 2005:

The #1 guy should be fighting the guy who is the next best guy, or the guy out there who might be the best. That's not Sylvia -- he had lost two of his last three. It's not Arlovski -- poor chin, stopped many times by strikes, no great performances against a good heavy in his ENTIRE CAREER with the sole exception of the first Sylvia fight. It's not Rogers, a guy with a hugely limited skillset and no experience in the big leagues. It's not Werdum, a guy with several losses who had shown no real signs of improvement or evolution (I think we all agree it's not Werdum, as evidenced by the fact that even after BEATING Fedor, he has not been ranked #1 by virtually any of the sources you guys love to cite as authorities when talking up Fedor's "big wins" of the past). And obviously it's not Lindland, HMC, Hunt, etc.

It could be Overeem. He's physically an entirely different fighter than he used to be and has has stellar performances in MMA and K-1 the past couple years.

It could have been Brock, before his loss obviously. A monster on paper and showing great athleticism and constant improvement, training with top guys.

It could have been Carwin, an undefeated wrestling behemoth with huge KO power who trained with the most successful team in MMA.

It could be JDS, a guy with only one long ago loss, who trains with some of the best fighters ever and has excellent standup, power, and chin.

It could of course be Cain, still undefeated, a top wrestler with endless cardio, speed to match Fedor's, and excellent standup.

But instead, we see Fedor for the last five years fighting guys who have already been "exposed", to put it uncharitably if mostly accurately. In fact other than Nog and Crocop, ALL of his opponents since god-knows-who have fallen into that category. Crocop lost to Nog, but as Fedorblower loves to point out, Crocop then went on a tear and seemed more motivated and skilled then ever, including outgrappling Barnett. Not to beat a dead horse, but Coleman had been "exposed" many times; Schilt had shown little signs of improvement since his various losses; and see above for the more recent opponents. NONE of his opponents except Nog and Crocop have had, going into their fights with him, ANY "consensus" belief or expectation that they "might be the best", and OFTEN, they weren't even the best fighters (according to the all-important "consensus") that were available to him.

So that's the complaint.

Holy Christmas FRAT.

Merry Christmas Helwig. By the way, I wonder if you'll continue to Bear False Witness against me on your Lord's day? :P





SHUT UP, JUST SHUT UP. GO HOME.


Wouldn't take Orcus too seriously, he also thinks Shaq has been exposed, and Roy Jones Jr, and Muhammed Ali was exposed by Holmes and Spinks ... he doesn't buy into the concept of athletes aging or wear and tear from a decade of top level competition.

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Bobby Lupo -  He'll be remembered like one of those old time boxers who were the best of their era, but in the future his era will be slammed for being full of one dimensional guys, he'll lose credit for fighting so many cans and he'll drop down in the rankings because of the fact that for the second half of his career, he avoided top competition. People will chuckle about how a chubby guy who threw wild punches could be the top dog much like people now looking at Dempsey and thinking he was crude brawler and completely missing WTF he was doing.


I agree.
It sucks how people will be able to look back and judge fighters by what is effective now.

What fedor did worked. He got caught in a submission. Its not like he went 5 rounds and got his ass handed to him like Kos or Hardy did vs GSP.

And good point about Dempsey hes my favorite boxer and its bullshit to see what some people say about that man

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@georgejonesjnr - I wasn't taking him too seriously. I was quoting back to orcus the exact words he shouted at Fedor after Fedor/Nog 2! None can defend. Phone Post

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His legacy is secure. It ended when Pride did. His current status in various 'top 10' lists is not.

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Regarding the Lindland fight (since so many Fedor detractors love bringing it up) I feel there is a double standard being offered by the pro-UFC brigade.



At the weigh in Fedor weighed 230lbs. Lindland was 212.5lbs
Fedor is not known to cut weigh for a weigh in. Clearly Lindland did not either.
So in truth, walking into the ring, the difference was 17.5lbs

This fight is often quoted as a mismatch or "easy fight" for Fedor.



In contrast if we look at one of the "much vaunted" wins from the record of Zuffa fanboy favourite Brock Lesnar we see Randy Couture.

At the weigh in Brock was 265lbs. Randy was 220lbs (in jeans, hat and chain).
Brock was known to have cut to make the limit from roughly 280lbs.
So there was a difference of AT LEAST 45lbs.

Yet this fight is always offered up as a great win for Brock.



This makes no sense at all.

31

Wouldn't take Orcus too seriously, he also thinks Shaq has been exposed, and Roy Jones Jr, and Muhammed Ali was exposed by Holmes and Spinks ... he doesn't buy into the concept of athletes aging or wear and tear from a decade of top level competition.


What on earth are you talking about? Are you saying Fedor lost to Werdum because of wear and tear? Did ANYTHING in my post that you quoted say anything about FEDOR being "exposed" at all?

Idiot.

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There are actually people that try to say that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan was. They say that Michael Jordan's era was watered down, he never had to face the great Laker/Celtic teams, he quit for two years just as Hakeem Olajuwon was in his prime, etc.

The fact is, there are idiots everywhere who will try to deny that Fedor is the best fighter ever to grace the planet Earth with his presence, that his 32 consecutive wins against top competition were somehow a fluke, that his era was watered down or whatever the fuck, the fact is that there are ZERO fighters doing today what Fedor has done, no one is even close to making that type of run right now.

The best fighters in the world consider Fedor Emelianenko the best fighter in the world, I would tend to agree with them, they might know a thing or two about the subject.

33

Fedor's legacy will be (or at least should be) that he was the greatest MMA fighter of the decade for the 2000's, who went on the single greatest run of dominance in MMA history to this point - where he beat more top opponents without losing for longer than any other MMA fighter, in any weight class, ever so far. That is just a quantifiable fact.

He was also, by far, the longest and most continuously reigning #1 in MMA history to this point - where he was the universally ranked #1 over 7 years straight (which was, in fact, YEARS longer than any other continuous reign thus far). He was also the consensus absolute best in the world, who would have been favored to beat every single other fighter in the world, throughout most of the decade.

Who else before 2009-2010 had even reasonably-arguably proven to be a better HW than Fedor?

Fedor also beat a wider variety of world-class martial artists by a wider variety of ways, more consistently than anyone else ever had to that point.

Along with beating many top-level fighters in MMA at the time, in terms of more specific stylistic challenges - he dominated the greatest MMA-adapted BJJ fighter ever in Nog, beat truly world-class strikers (including even outstriking the most feared striker in the sport at the time in Cro Cop), beat world-class wrestlers (including a Coleman who was still the absolute best HW wrestler in MMA at the time) - and he beat them on the feet, in the clinch, or on the ground, by outstriking, KO-ing, taking down, outgrappling, GnP-ing, or submitting them, or by various combinations of the above.

By virtually every possible standard of measure - who he beat and how he beat them, how consistently he did so, how long and indisputably he reigned (as the undisputed #1 for MOST of the decade) - Fedor surpassed everyone who had ever come before. And it took nearly a decade for him to be finally, legitimately beaten by anything other than a controversial, illegally-induced cut stoppage.

In terms of abilities and accomplishments, Fedor was an unprecedented fighter.

Fedor not only did not lose over 9 years straight and won 27 official fights in a row - which included more top-10 and top-5 opponents at the time than any other streak in MMA history to this point - but he won every single one of those fights DECISIVELY in that whole span. Hell, in that whole span, Fedor lost arguably one full ROUND in over 9 years, before Werdum.

For nearly a decade, while others lost fights - Fedor lost moments.

His thorough, consistent dominance at the highest level has been unparalleled. Fedor was the most perennially, top-level dominant fighter in MMA history so far. Again, that is just a quantifiable fact. He was the closest thing to long-term, elite perfection as it has ever gotten in this sport.

Fedor dominated a decade - and whether he is still the greatest today or not, he almost unquestionably was the greatest for that decade (and nothing can ever retroactively un-do all that history) - and is VERY justifiably the greatest MMA fighter EVER for the sport's history thus far. THAT should be his primary legacy.

(Especially to more long-term knowledgeable followers of the sport, who were actually around for more of that decade and his career - and for the significance of all that he did, when he did it.)

34

orcus - 
FEDOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How come you can retroactively downgrade Couture, Brock, Carwin, etc based on how they have looked in their most recent fights, as opposed to when people wanted Fedor to fight them, but whenever anyone does that about any of Fedor's opponents -- even the many who had looked bad GOING INTO their fights with him -- you and Fedorblower start going into conniptions?



This is the problem with Fedor's competition since the Crocop fight in 2005:



The #1 guy should be fighting the guy who is the next best guy, or the guy out there who might be the best. That's not Sylvia -- he had lost two of his last three. It's not Arlovski -- poor chin, stopped many times by strikes, no great performances against a good heavy in his ENTIRE CAREER with the sole exception of the first Sylvia fight. It's not Rogers, a guy with a hugely limited skillset and no experience in the big leagues. It's not Werdum, a guy with several losses who had shown no real signs of improvement or evolution (I think we all agree it's not Werdum, as evidenced by the fact that even after BEATING Fedor, he has not been ranked #1 by virtually any of the sources you guys love to cite as authorities when talking up Fedor's "big wins" of the past). And obviously it's not Lindland, HMC, Hunt, etc.



It could be Overeem. He's physically an entirely different fighter than he used to be and has has stellar performances in MMA and K-1 the past couple years.



It could have been Brock, before his loss obviously. A monster on paper and showing great athleticism and constant improvement, training with top guys.



It could have been Carwin, an undefeated wrestling behemoth with huge KO power who trained with the most successful team in MMA.



It could be JDS, a guy with only one long ago loss, who trains with some of the best fighters ever and has excellent standup, power, and chin.



It could of course be Cain, still undefeated, a top wrestler with endless cardio, speed to match Fedor's, and excellent standup.



But instead, we see Fedor for the last five years fighting guys who have already been "exposed", to put it uncharitably if mostly accurately. In fact other than Nog and Crocop, ALL of his opponents since god-knows-who have fallen into that category. Crocop lost to Nog, but as Fedorblower loves to point out, Crocop then went on a tear and seemed more motivated and skilled then ever, including outgrappling Barnett. Not to beat a dead horse, but Coleman had been "exposed" many times; Schilt had shown little signs of improvement since his various losses; and see above for the more recent opponents. NONE of his opponents except Nog and Crocop have had, going into their fights with him, ANY "consensus" belief or expectation that they "might be the best", and OFTEN, they weren't even the best fighters (according to the all-important "consensus") that were available to him.



So that's the complaint.



Holy Christmas FRAT.



Merry Christmas Helwig. By the way, I wonder if you'll continue to Bear False Witness against me on your Lord's day? :P





 Solid Post.  Refreshing to read statements posted with open mindedness and some common sense.  Kudos, voted up.  

35

DarkReflection - The issue with Fedor and "legacy" is this.



MMA is a VERY young sport.



Royce in his PRIME wouldn't be competitive today. Period.



HW's historically are the WEAKEST DIVISION...TECHNICALLY...skillwise.



Fedor fought in the weakest division from a SKILL perspective.



Since this sport really started it has evolved incredibly. In the last 5 years alone the bar has been almost constantly raised.



Fedor deserves credit for being the FIRST ...HEAVYWEIGHT...to really START putting it all together.



He has decent hands...and pretty bad ass ground skills. He's also got tons of heart and decent cardio.



Fedor's COMPETITION however..in the era in which he truly shined was ONE DIMENSIONAL. The people he was fighting were not putting it all together in the same way todays elite are.



Fedor HAS YET to test himself against other truly well rounded HW's.



The fact is..there are STILL ..VERY FEW...truly well rounded HW's. But they are improving year over year.



Even today Fedor is EASILY a top 10 HW. Likely top 5.



BUT...this does not mean Fedor is the be all and end all of HW history. I think it would be accurate if history remembered Fedor for being the first guy in the HW division to really start putting it all together.



All that said...Fedor and his management want no part of real threats. Period.



They are dragging their feet...and it's going to cost him in the eyes of the fans and history, unfortunately.



Cheers



-DR


 Another solid post in this place.  Am I dreaming?  

36

joe k -
TimeToCrush - LOL @ Fedor not fighting top competition within the last few years. Since 2008 these are the fights he's signed up for:

Sylvia (top 5)
Couture* (top 5)
Arlovski (top 5)
Barnett* (top 5)
Rogers (top 10)
Werdum (top 10)

*No fault of his own those fights didn't materialize

So who else at heavyweight has signed up to fight more top competition in the last couple years than Fedor?

People really are fucking dumb. There's no heavyweight that comes close to his legacy.

Don't get me wrong, I like Fedor, but that list is beyond me.

Sylvia and Arlovski top 5?? Werdum wasn't top 10 before he beat Fedor. Rogers top 10 is also a bit of a stretch.

No, that list is accurate, and actually representative of the divisional reality at the time, and the contenders' hierarchy going into those fights.

Sylvia was in fact generally ranked #4 or #5 on almost every major ranking out there at the time (behind only Fedor, Nog, Randy, and on some rankings, Barnett). Sylvia was ranked #4 by Sherdog, WAMMA, and Total-MMA, and #5 by MMAWeekly, the USAToday/Bloodyelbow Consensus Rankings, FCFighter, Wrestling Observer, and MMAFighting.

In fact, Sylvia was not only top-5 on most rankings at the time, but even on the few where he wasn't top-5, he was still top-10 - and thus, was UNIVERSALLY top-10 on EVERY single ranking that was even around at the time. You could not find a solitary ranking that did not have Sylvia on it. Otherwise, please post it here.

Likewise, Arlovski was also universally ranked top-5 (from #2 to #5) on EVERY major, credible ranking around. In fact, while there was no single indisputable #2 after Nog lost, Arlovski was then the #2 HW on more rankings than anyone else at that point (and at that point, there was also a rather clear-cut top-5 of Fedor, Arlovski, Barnett, Mir, and Brock).

Arlovski was ranked #2 by Sherdog, the USAToday/Bloodyelbow Consensus Rankings, Sports Illustrated, Inside MMA, Fight Magazine, 411Mania, Cage Potato, Brawl Sports (Houston Chronicle), and Five Ounces of Pain - ranked #3 by MMAFighting, MMAPlayground, Tagg Radio, WAMMA, MMATorch, and Total-MMA - and ranked #4 by MMAWeekly and FCFighter.

There was not a SINGLE credible ranking that did not have Arlovski in its top 5. Again, otherwise, please post it here.

Rogers was also generally ranked from #6 to #8 on virtually every major ranking at the time. He was ranked #6 by Sherdog and Independent World MMA Rankings, #7 by FCFighter and MMANews, and #8 by MMAWeekly, USAToday/Bloodyelbow, Sports Illustrated, MMAFighting, WAMMA, InsideFights, and InsideMMA.

Werdum was also already universally top-10 (from #8 to #10) on EVERY major, credible ranking that was around at the time, going into the Fedor fight (i.e., even BEFORE his win over Fedor) - including MMAWeekly, Sherdog, USAToday/Bloodyelbow, Sports Illustrated, FCFighter, Independent World MMA Rankings, and MMAFighting.

These are all facts taken from reality. These were their recorded standings in the rankings that existed at the time, going into their fights with Fedor. (Btw, I can also post most of these rankings in their entirety for you, as I have previously done on several occasions, if you would like to see the whole lists - so please just let me know if you need more extensive visual confirmation.)

Therefore, it is also just a quantifiable, verifiable (and undeniable) fact that Fedor has faced 4 opponents in a row who were generally (actually, overwhelmingly), if not universally, top-10 or top-5 (Sylvia and Arlovski) at the time. Claiming otherwise has no factual basis.

37

(Btw, I can also post most of these rankings in their entirety for you, as I have previously done on several occasions, if you would like to see the whole lists - so please just let me know if you need more extensive visual confirmation.


lol, I was always joking about how your sole interest in MMA is limited to numbers you can plug into your spreadsheet, and now here is confirmation.

What kind of weirdo logs the rankings that the dopes at MMA websites come up with, for years on end?

More importantly, what kind of weirdo is sooo into MMA that he does that, yet at the same time is ONLY interested in that aspect of the sport? To the point that he NEVER discusses the fights themselves in terms of action or excitement or enoyment but ONLY in terms of how they affect the rankings he can plug into his depressing spreadsheet?

There was not a SINGLE credible ranking that did not have Arlovski in its top 5


Out of curiosity, what makes a ranking "credible"? What makes, say, CagePotato's rankings more "credible" than anyone else's? Are we going by number of hits here? Alexa ranking? How much you personally agree with their numbers? Nice layouts?

38


Therefore, it is also just a quantifiable, verifiable (and undeniable) fact that Fedor has faced 4 opponents in a row who were generally (actually, overwhelmingly), if not universally, top-10 or top-5 (Sylvia and Arlovski) at the time. Claiming otherwise has no factual basis.


Let's figure out the meaningfulness of these rankings, because they're all you talk about, as though the numbers of such authorities as "Cage Potato" should settle all arguments as to quality of competition.

For example:

Where was Coleman ranked going into the Igor fight, having gone 0-4 on his way out of the UFC and into Pride?

If he jumped to #1 just for beating Igor, why didn't Werdum jump to #1 for beating Fedor? Should he have? If he should have and didn't, why should we pay the "consensus" rankings any mind?

Getting back to Coleman, what did he then drop to after Nog beat him?

Where would he then have been 3 years later when he bought Fedor, given that his only win -- in fact, his only fight -- in the interim was Don Frye? Can you really remain in the top 10 for two years without fighting at all? Or for three years with the only fight in that time being a top 100 guy like Frye? 0-4 after his last big win over Severn; a couple meaningless wins in Pride, win over #1 Igor, loss to Nog, two years of inactivity, win over Don Frye, another year off, and yet you insist he was top 10 when he fought Fedor? Should he have been?

Where was Serra rightfully ranked after beating GSP but then losing the rematch? Even going into the Lytle fight he had only lost to GSP and top 5 Hughes since being #1. What was he ranked then and what must Lytle therefore be ranked now?

39

Zamiel -
orcus - How come you can retroactively downgrade Couture, Brock, Carwin, etc based on how they have looked in their most recent fights, as opposed to when people wanted Fedor to fight them, but whenever anyone does that about any of Fedor's opponents -- even the many who had looked bad GOING INTO their fights with him -- you and Fedorblower start going into conniptions?

How come Zuffa-swingers can retroactively downgrade Fedor's opposition, but whenever someone does that to potential UFC opponents, you start going into conniptions?

Ha-ha, exactly. Beat me to it.

So orcus, are you now suggesting that there is something wrong with "retroactively downgrading" opponents? Glad to hear it, ha-ha. Although it would be rather curious that you of all people would now find the practice so objectionable, when you are very arguably the single most eager and persistent proponent of "retroactive downgrading" when it comes to Fedor's wins.

(Btw, Randy, Mir, and Carwin were all big, meaningful, top-ranked fights at the time for Brock [although Randy by then had technically dropped for inactivity] - except by your OWN standard of measure, wouldn't all those guys now be ripe for the SAME kind of retroactive downgrading that you particularly espouse and specialize in? Or is that a standard reserved only for Fedor's opponents?)
orcus - The #1 guy should be fighting the guy who is the next best guy, or the guy out there who might be the best. That's not Sylvia -- he had lost two of his last three. It's not Arlovski -- poor chin, stopped many times by strikes, no great performances against a good heavy in his ENTIRE CAREER with the sole exception of the first Sylvia fight.

There were only 2 HW's considered definitively better than Sylvia at that point - Randy and Nog. And Fedor had already definitively dominated Nog twice at Nog's peak.

As for Randy - that was the fight that both Fedor and Randy had WANTED and hoped to put together in Affliction (where Fedor had signed with them as a fight promotion, since as a clothing/sponsorship company, they already had both Randy and Fedor in the fold). And the reason that fight did not happen was ultimately because the UFC did everything they legally could to keep that fight from ever materializing, and from allowing Randy to ever fight outside the UFC.

So aside from Nog (again, whom Fedor had already dominantly beaten twice) and Randy (whom Fedor had wanted and openly sought out to fight, but which was not possible purely because of the UFC and Randy's contractual/legal issues with them) - the BEST opponent available at that point was Sylvia.

And by the time of the Arlovski fight, there was NO ONE who was considered a definitively better opponent for Fedor than Arlovski at that point. The only others who were even arguably as good as or better an opponent for Fedor then, or who were even arguably as significant a matchup, were Barnett, Mir now (after beating Nog), and Brock (who was now the official UFC titleholder).

Those were the ONLY other viable #2 candidates in the HW division who were even up there WITH Arlovski at that point (but not definitively ahead of him) - where again, Arlovski was in fact considered the #2 HW on more rankings than anyone else at the time.

Nog had just looked horrible, like the proverbial "zombie" after giving his WORST performance EVER against a previously unranked Mir - where many, if not most, thought that Nog was not only no longer an elite HW contender at all, but even suspected he might be altogether DONE as a fighter. Randy by that point had not only been stopped by a previously unranked Brock, but had not won a fight at all in almost a year and a half, after coming back from his extended inactivity.

The ONLY reasonable #2 candidates - who were on that highest level of contendership for Fedor at that point - were Arlovski, Barnett, Mir, and Brock.

And Arlovski and Barnett had been the most established top HW's left, while Mir and Brock had not even been considered top-10 before their last fights. Mir was also still widely considered the most EXREMELY inconsistent fighter in the division, capable of the most extreme highs and lows - and Brock had not even avenged his loss to Mir yet, was still considered largely untested, and was still 0-1 (by submission) against the ONLY submissions fighter he had ever faced.

Are you denying the reality that many at the time did consider Arlovski to be the 2nd best HW in MMA at that point, while many (like yourself) felt that it was Barnett? (Btw, this perception was also reflected by the reality that they were in fact the two most commonly ranked #2 HW's at the time - where Barnett then became the new consensus #2 right after Arlovski lost.)

And as for the debate between Arlovski and Barnett, and particularly which one Fedor should have faced - Barnett was actually OFFERED the Fedor fight for the second Affliction event, and turned it down - which is why Fedor then faced Arlovski instead.

So please tell us who all these other definitively better opponents (or reasonable #2 candidates) there were for Fedor at that point than Arlovski? I know you want to say Barnett (your own openly-stated #2 at the time, which many others actually agreed with), which would at least be reasonable - but again, Barnett DECLINED the shot to face Fedor at that second Affliction anyway (just as he had turned down the shot to face Fedor on NYE 2006 for the Championship in Pride).

(And btw, Arlovski was also on a better streak at that point than Barnett, who had only beaten Rizzo, Monson, and Yoshida since coming back from over a year of inactivity after losing his last two meaningful fights to Cro Cop and Nog.)

Oh yeah, and this might be one of the most telling things of all as to how Sylvia and Arlovski were actually regarded as select-few elite HW's at the time - given your noted proclivity to post extensively (and negatively) on Fedor threads - could you please post your OWN posts complaining about how Fedor was not facing elite or worthy opponents at the time of those fights?

(I think the only real complaint you could even muster at the time was that he wasn't facing Barnett - but it's hard to face someone who turned down the opportunity to face you twice, and then also single-handedly aborted the third opportunity by testing positive again.)
orcus - Holy Christmas FRAT.

I'm not sure if it's more sad or amusing (actually, it's HILARIOUS) that you apparently could not even afford yourself Christmas Day off in your endless quest of detraction against Fedor. 7 days a week, 365 days a years, all weekends and holidays included, right? You really do love your work, ha-ha.

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Darth BLAF - I love the Tim Sylvia revisionism most of all.

Yeah, me too.

I love how the Team Zuffa cheerleading squad suddenly and collectively turned on Sylvia and retroactively discounted him as a top HW - only AFTER Fedor destroyed him, of course.

But up until then, I didn't hear you or orcus or any of the other usual anti-Fedor spirit squad crying about how Sylvia was this unworthy or non-elite opponent at the time. (Btw, krycek, refresh my memory here, what was your screenname at that point - was it still "BLAF" or "Chuck Kongo" already? Because I think I saw an old "Chuck Kongo" post of yours just a little while ago, so they might not have been deleted - so then maybe you, along with orcus, can look up for us all of your own posts complaining about how Sylvia was NOT a legit opponent then?)

What is especially ironic about all "the Tim Sylvia revisionism" here is that - according to posters like yourself and orcus, and based on that Meltzer report from 2007 - Sylvia was even supposed to be the specific reason why Fedor did not sign with the UFC in the first place, because Fedor had "wanted no part of" ever facing Sylvia (ha-ha). Remember that? And this was even AFTER Sylvia had just lost to Randy, in his worst performance EVER.

Btw, orcus in particular was actually the giddy Team Zuffa head-cheerleader going around and spouting that Fedor-ducking-Sylvia chant whenever he could - and really talking Sylvia up at the time (even AFTER his losses to Randy and Nog), and detailing with his typical girlish glee all the reasons why Fedor would really want to avoid facing that fearsome, dangerous giant.

He - and many others - even stated at the time, repeatedly, that Sylvia had looked better than EVER in his last fight against Nog (which I actually agreed with then, ha-ha) - and even claimed that Sylvia had SURPASSED Fedor against Nog, in that Sylvia had smashed and come closer to finishing Nog more than Fedor had EVER done. Sylvia was supposed to be all healed up after his back surgery after the Randy fight - and the Nog fight represented Sylvia's best, most effective and impressive offensive performance against a top HW in YEARS (at least since all the way back to his wins over Ricco and Gan McGee).

He - nor you - sure as hell wasn't focusing on how Sylvia "had lost two of his last three" at that point, and how Sylvia had already been exposed to be this "declining" HW (LOL).

Again, that kind of talk only started AFTER Fedor annihilated him. (Which is when guys like orcus suddenly and completely forgot about his own RAVE reviews over Sylvia after the Nog fight, and shifted to focus on how Sylvia "had lost two of his last three" instead. A focus which, again, had not been emphasized BEFORE the fight.)

But the reality is that Sylvia's stock was actually at a HIGH (and thus, still highly ranked) after his dominating performance against Nog, even though he ultimately ended up losing to Nog - just like how Sonnen's stock was at a high (actually, even higher than it had ever been), and still highly ranked after his dominating performance against Anderson, even though he too had ended up losing by submission (yet again).

But hey, let's bottom-line all this "Tim Sylvia revisionism" talk with this ultimately defining issue - please just name for us more than 10 or even 5 HW's who even SHOULD have been ranked ahead of, or considered better than, Sylvia at that point. Go ahead - let's see what kind of list you can come up with, and how reasonable it can be.

Plus, who should Fedor have faced instead of Sylvia at that point? (Again, Fedor had already steamrolled Nog twice, while the Randy fight - the one that Fedor really wanted and sought out - was ultimately rendered not possible because of the UFC.)

And who should Fedor have faced instead of Arlovski at that point as well? I'd like to see an extensive (and reasonable) list of alternatives. (Especially since Barnett turned down the shot - and Fedor would then sign to face him in his very next fight anyway. And the ONLY reason the Barnett fight ultimately did not happen at all is because of Barnett - not Fedor.)

(Btw, krycek, you were actually high on Arlovski, much like how orcus was really high on Sylvia, and doubting that Fedor would even dare to face Arlovski next, and were actually impressed that Fedor then signed on to do so - and even, gasp o' shock, gave him props at the time for doing so. Yeah, "revisionism" indeed.)

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Fader will never be in the ufc hall of fame and most fans will never know of him Phone Post