Fighting Pistol DVD

Underground
21

Jock -

I was just thinking -

when you are going through your presentation, from step 4 to step 5, you are driving the gun straight out to the target. Like a bayonet. you are not coming up at a angle(bowling), nor are you coming down on the target(casting/fishing)

the same should hold true on a mag change - why would you point the muzzle up and come down on the target like casting, which is incorrect presentation, and will cause being off target

as a mattter of fact, instructors point this out as a cause for you being off target -

also - in all honesty - i have mistakenly held the gun at a slight angle when doing a emergency action drill. the mis-fed round (a stove pipe IIRC) didnt clear and I began to shake the gun to clear the round - I was immediately stop, and correct. My my instructor told me "let gravity do it's job. the round will fall if the weapon is parelle to the ground. if the weapon is at a angle, the round can easily get caught up"

22

there's no need to worry about how many rounds you fired. If you run dry, you should be seeking cover anyway before reloading if at all possible.

LOL - there you have it -

you should be seeking cover AS you are firing - it aint a duel - stand where you are and fire

23

This is funny.

24

i agree about learning both moves the same way, and i have -

not sure where you are going with your method though

take a snap cap, or a spent case and create a stove pipe

tap the bottom, to seat the mag (just in case that there was a failure to feed)

hold the gun on taget

bring your arm 1/2 way to your chest (doing the presentation in reverse order kinda)

without changeing the level of the muzzle (paralle to the ground), run the slide back, while twisting your wrist about 45 degrees over so the ejection port side is ground side down. remember, dont let the muzzle be anywhere but 90 degree's to the target face - tell me how you make out

if the weapon is pointed up, the round wants to fall back towards the firing pin block end first and get hung up

25

when changing mags, it's the same thing -

whether a tactical change without or with retention

weapon in front of you on target (strong hand)

weak hand on the mag, index finger down the front edge - so you can feel a round with your finger tip (lets you know the mag is going in the right way)

pull the mag out of where ever it is (pouch) start turning over the slide so the rounds are facing down range, also lets you line up "flat to flat" (slide to mag well) Mag. bottom goes on the heel of your palm

at te same time you string hand is bringing the weapon back towards your face - all the time muzzle facing down range

the sights should sill be on target (we can debate the whole, you stop looking at the and focus on the front sight some other time)

you can give your wrist a little snap to allow the gun to rotate ever so slightly to allow you to reach the mag release if you have to

(you can retain or let it fall to the ground - wont get into proper rention, placement, ect)

assuming we are letting it just hit the ground i cant my wrist slightly, port side towards ground, just enough to see the mag well -again, all the while with the muzzle facing the target

insert the mag somewhat angled , flat to flat so you can feel you have found the well.

the load is part you driving the mag into the gun, part driving the gun down on the mag towards your palm

no multiple taps on the mags - once should do it

bring the gun of it's cant so it is 90 degrees again (still on target) - run the slide - rock and roll

26

You don't need to run the slide to clear a stove pipe. Stove pipes can be cleared using nothing more than the blade of your hand.

There's more than one way to effectively skin a cat

27

Mike Hughs, Steve Slawson, Steve Hendricks - all current or former Gunsite Head Instructors and rangemasters teach it as Sreiter is describing.

There is so much mis-information on this thread I dont even know where to begin.

28

You should always have an approx count of rounds down range, with any type of firearm. Is it hard in stress situations? Yes, that why we train to do it.

The vast majority of gun fights are over in 3-5 seconds. Its not like you need to count that much. Some people teach you to just count 1-2-3 per acclerated pair. 6 rounds down range, you are on 3, time for a tactical reload and a threat assesment.

There are lots of ways to deal with stopages, some try to emphasize the least amount of steps to get rounds back down range, and others the most thorough. In a perfect world we would one standard training methodology. But the key points remain.

29

just in case you are wonder about JACK and his credentials

check this thread http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=761021&FID=2

30

jack - what did you think of the video ?

31

It will not play for me, just timed out. I will take a look at it later.

32

I've logged a few hours on the range and I've yet to hear anone advocate the counting of rounds during an actual gunfight. Counting rounds must be a Gunsite thing.

33

It must be a Gunsite pistol thing.

34

It's funny...

When you put out a product it always comes under fire from some and is
the holy grail to others.

Always.

Demi

35

Funny and true but through the good and the bad it keeps flying off the shelf.

36

Again, here we have people saying things like "I have a few hours of training" "no where I have trained suggests counting rounds" and other vague bullshit.

Well I listed in detail where I have had my training, and thats SOP at any number of places.

Please be specific if you know a reputable training source who is telling you not to keep track of rounds fired. Please let me know who this is.

Its just common sense, you ALWAYS want to know where you stand on a reload. Unexpected tactical reloads are bad, rifle, pistol or shotgun.

We are not talking about some Zen top of the mountain skill for gods sake. Just count, you know, like 3rd grade.

So again, rather than be a psuedo expert, please tell me exactly where you got all this expertise. I dont care who has put out videos, who is a mod on here, etc.

There are lots people in all kinds of hobbies trying to sell shit. Selling something does not make you an expert.

What if Srieter suddenly put out a BJJ video, saying you should never pass the guard? Dont you think people would question his knowledge? His training? Why he is making a video?

Its not a personal attack. He might well be able to articulate some good reason. But if he just says "I have lots of training and we dont do that" - thats not going to raise some flags about why he is making a video?

I know there are TONS of different training methods for firearms. I have trained with people telling me totally different things. I am OK with that. We dont have to agree we each other all the time to make this a constructive forum. But at least do us the justice of making it constructive.

37

In additon to my time with the military and now in law enforcement I've trained with (in no particular order):

Jeff Gonzales, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Ken Hackathorn, certified instructors under Phil Singleton, did some training at Blackwater, and yes... with James Yeager and quite a few of the instructors with Tactical Response. Out of all the people I've trained with, I've yet to hear one say to count your rounds. In fact most say that don't worry about it because you'll be too busy trying to shoot the guy shooting at you while looking for cover while praying that you don't get hit while cussing that you just dropped your Chinese take-out.

38

Also let me add...

"Unexpected tactical reloads are bad, rifle, pistol or shotgun" - I've yet to see a tactical reload that was unexpected. After all the tac load is purposely done during a monetary lull in the fight. An emergency reload is when you run the gun dry. Atleast that's how it is in my "psuedo expert" world.

39

again, you lost me. You have never seen someone have to preform an unexpected reload?

You have never done a drill, where you shoot with an unknown amount of ammo in your magazine, to see how you perform a reload when its not expected? The whole purpose of the drill is too learn to perform a tactical reload went you dont expect it.

I have never heard this "emergency reload" term. A tactical reload is where you reload your firearm, while maintaining a tactical position / stance. Hopefully while moving, communicating, seeking cover, etc.

On a hot range, all of our reloads are tactical. After every drill, during every break, etc.

A normal reload, is where I walk back and chat with the range master while I reload all my mags.

If i suddenly went empty, stopped, looked around, asked the range master if I could step off the line, footed it to my range bag and started loading magazines - thats not exactly tactical is it? If someone is shooting at me, its really not tactical.

Thats why we count, so we never have an "emergency reload". Anytime I having an emergency, thats bad, especially in a fire fight. I'd rather count than have any kind of "emergency."

40

this is standard CQB fair, done thousands of times. We proceed from there to transitions. If we cannot safely or effectively reload, we transition to our side arm. for the safety of you, and your whole team, we'd much rather have you using a rifle or a shotgun, than falling back to your handgun. Hence the importance of knowing exactly when you need that reload.