Focus mitt thread on Big JKD forum

Jump into the water when you don't know how to swim, and hope you just somehow now how to do it. Sounds logical.

NDL; Having read your post I see that I DID understand what the goal was behind my dummy training. In a really old Vunak tape series, one of the tapes is on wooden dummy training. Vunak basically says that training your paks and lops on the dummy will develop them to such a high degree that a human will feel like butter by comparison. That made sense to me so I earnestly trained on the dummy (and other immovable objects).

The problem I found though was that when the person was fighting back, I couldn't simply pak or lop with impunity and expect to hit him. It took a whole different set of skill I simply wasn't training on the dummy. Again, it was lacking Aliveness and that made all the difference. Only through sparring did I develop the ability to start hitting the person because I had to time my movements, my attacks, my defenses, change my strategy, experience getting hit, feeling fear, getting fatigued, etc. It required skills I could never learn from the dummy.

As for your statements regarding UFC fighters, I will simply say I don't entirely agree, and keep it at that for now (have to go to bed).

Lautaro

"ufc fighters are in the stone age on their feet"

I think that was a little over the top honestly. I think they are in the brass age cause that's the kind of balls you have to have to compete at that level. If wing chun is so advanced with it's approach to stand up fighting, how come we have yet to see any ufc champions that are wing chun stylists? Teach a good wing chun man some takedown defense and see how far he can go in mma with wing chun as his base. It just can not compete with boxing/thai boxing standup. I only bring this up because you poked a shot at ufc strikers. now as a self defense art, some things can work just fine, and it does have merit.

I'm with you Ryan. It ends the b*llshit, and wakes them up promptly. As such, step #1 = visit a boxing Gym.

Until then conversations are usually moot.

Enjoy
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

NDL,

I have not developed high skill on the dummy I must admit. Thankfully, I was exposed to much more efficient means of training early on. With regards to what you mentioned about learning from the dummy. What you learn from a dummy will NEVER happen in a real fight!

"What you receive from the dummy is what may happen in combat, example: You do a pak sau on someone who doesn't move, what do you do then?"

Unless you are fighting the comatose, people do indeed move. The dummy "teaches" nothing relevant. In order to learn you need feedback from whatever you are learning from. Unless the goal is to develop skill for fighting against trees, the feedback is wrong.

I'm dying to hear how NHB fighters are "in the stone age on their feet".

"Jump into the water when you don't know how to swim, and hope you just somehow now how to do it. Sounds logical."

Lay on the beach and wave your arms around on the sand, then jump in the water. Dry land swimming. Oh Lord....I just quoted Bruce Lee...I need to go now.

Jerry
www.centerlinegym.com

Newdragon,

Try to keep an open mind about what these guys are saying. The beauty of this forum is getting the combined experience from guys who have (collectively) done it all at some time or another. You've got guys who have boxed, some are BJJ black belts, others have done JKD for years, many have wrestled, most have competed at some time or another, and so on.

The next step is to try what's being suggested. They're not telling you to go play on the freeway....so give it a try. Sometimes defending a 'way' can be an experience in futility. I can attest to that! It really is a jolt to the consciousness to realize there IS a better way to train, and what you've been doing has had it's day.

Terry G.

I like what I'm hearing. Just that most of you think I am suggesting only to do Wing Chun or only to train on a Dummy. Not the case at all just defending the training as something to have in your arsenal. I don't even do traditional wing chun just some of the things that do work. I firmly believe in making sure something works, if not throw it out. I know wing chun has its limitations. I have had several fights and the stuff I learned on the dummy I did for real. For example. This guy starts coming at me, I throw a lead punch he backs just out of range and then comes in quick trying to get his hands on me. He actually was so quick that he follows my punch right in and tries to grab me. I feel the pressure of his attack on my lead arm and quickly adjusted to it and ended up moving him to the side as I moved myself at an angle controlling his arm and landing a rib braking palm shot on him then following up with a forearm to the neck which let me finish with a choke, I should have slammed him on his head but could hear him groaning from the shot that broke his ribs, so I just let him fall to the ground and then left quickly. The encounter was witnessed by a friend of mine who said he thought for sure that the guy was going to get me but in an instant I had control and was hitting at the same time. I'm not trying to brag or anything just explaining how you can take your skills to a level that works in real situations. All of this happened in just about a second. And I can tell you that dummy training was a part of this. I just don't believe anyone here has said anything to make me believe that they have mastered close range combat where if the right decision is made without thought you can end the fight right now. It doesn't seem real because you just haven't seen it yet. Don't be so closeminded that you put limitations on yourself. Fighting will evolve and new or old things done correctly will prevail. Just because you have seen good technique done with shitty timing doesn't mean it can't be done right. It's pretty obvious to me that I haven't heard anyone speak who can actually use a dummy correctly. If you think there is nothing to be learned then you didn't put your time in or didn't have someone who knew how to teach properly. The dummy may not be alive but you can be while using it. As for the pads, one more time, you must learn to hit properly so you don't overextend yourself when you miss and also so you have maximum power when you do hit. I'm saying look at any of the fights on tape and when someone misses they are way out of control. Now wouldn't it be nice to miss a punch and it have no effect on yourself because you just move on to the next move without overextending or losing balance? I'm sure you guys have not seen this in real time with a live opponent. Thanks for all your words. I appreciate the input. The best thing a fighter can have (even if he lacks top skill) is to believe in what he is doing.

Lautaro have you heard of chi sau? And the dummy shouldn't be immovable. It must have some aliveness to it. You should train on one that can be moved a bit, not something that is fixed to a wall. I think you don't understand how things work. You say you couldn't lop or pak, well you should only be doing it if it's there. If it is not available of course it won't work. CHI SAU will help develop your feeling skills so you will use the right move at the right time. I will say it once again you must get the proper training and you must take your skills to the highest level possible before you come up with statements like this.

NDL: I'm at work right now so I'll have to make this short.

At this point we're just trying to counter each other's point of views with words. Ultimately, this can become an exercise in futility at at times. This is precisely why Matt's advice is: Step 1, Go to a boxing gym. Why? Because then all the theoritical arguments are laid to rest once Aliveness rears its ugly head.

With Aliveness, you can't argue what SHOULD happen. You can only observe what DOES happen. If it matches what you believed to be true, great. If not, you'll have to revise your thoughts on the matter and learn from the experience.

That said, I won't say that you're wrong and I'm right. It could very well be that we're both right, just from different points of view. After all, there's more than one way to skin a cat. So unless we get together and put these things to the test in an Alive environment, we could go on and on spinning our wheels ad nauseum.

Anyway, that's all for now. Gotta get back to work :).

Lautaro



Good Point Lautaro. Advice heeded.

New Dragon

I was wondering how much time a total beginner should give before they start the "aliveness" training if they're new to the MA. I know getting hit is a wakeup call, but when's the best time to really get into that type of training? After a certain skill level?

Frost

Frost you should make sure you have some skills and what skills you do have should be sharp and without hesitation. Just be careful if you think something doesn't work you just might not be good enough at what your doing and then think it doesn't work. Being repeatedly hit may sound like a good way to learn but if you haven't developed whatever skills you think are necessary you will end up being halfassed at best. So to answer your question, get your skills above average then see how they work in real time and throw away what doesn't work and improve the things that do.

Hey Frost, I'm still at work so here's a quick answer.

1) Aliveness does not mean beating the crap out of someone. It means incorporating resistance, footwork and timing. See the SBG website for further clarification if required.

2) Aliveness can be done on Day 1. Again, this doesn't necessarily involve full-contact fighting. That's simply Aliveness at the highest level of intensity. Drills can be made Alive where no one gets hurt.

Lautaro

I think those ring girl webcam cybersex girls use a lot of aliveness in their training too, but no resistance is required :)

Seriously though, this thread is interesting. I thought the points made in Ryan's earlier post made sense but I'm not sure why he later said to throw the mits out :)

Anyway, it's all a matter of mixture of the right training aids. There is a lot to be gained from all those tools.

1) Aliveness does not mean beating the crap out of someone. It means incorporating resistance, footwork and timing. See the SBG website for further clarification if required.

2) Aliveness can be done on Day 1. Again, this doesn't necessarily involve full-contact fighting. That's simply Aliveness at the highest level of intensity. Drills can be made Alive where no one gets hurt.

Lautaro thats perfect.

-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

"I thought the points made in Ryan's earlier post made sense but I'm not sure why he later said to throw the mits out"

Your not serious about that are you Frost? I thought it was painfully obvious.

Ryan

Greetings, my experences with focus mitts. After
spending way to much money, I would got to class and
we would do mostly focus mitt training. Great!, no
not great, because when you put two people together
that don't have any skills and show them how to do the
drill. At the end of class, nothing has been learned.
Why, because nother person has the skills to help
develop the skills of the other person. I did this
for a year, (Adam, where would you say my stand-up
striking skills are at. Honestly,I would say pretty low.) Yet I paid my money and did what the instructor
told me to do. Without a coach at one end of those
mitts, you're wasting your time. I got more out of
one weekend down at the Hardcore Gym training with
aliveness, then I did in that year of training with
focus mitts. I don't learn much, but I learned to
leave my mitts in my training bag. All we do at my
place is train with a partner. If we want to work power, we have two heavy bags to beat on. If someone
needs to learn something, we work with him, but then
on go the gloves and train it sparring.
Gerald






Thanks Gerald. Now if you would just have some red meat your boxing would skyrocket.

Adam

Introduction, so your saying you get an introduction to something and then just blow by it right on to something else. Don't you think that you should get really really good at the basics before moving on to something else. No wonder why so many fights you see these clowns who have no idea how to fight while standing up. They just blew by the basics. Bob the tinker, so you had a bad experience because your so called instructor didn't know what he was doing and like so many schools out there they just want your money. Then you say that unless the guy on the other end knows what he is doing (which is a good statement) your wasting your time. What if the guy on the other end knows what he is doing? You obvioulsy still haven't found anyone who knows what he is doing. Or according to your own statement you would be training with focus mitts. Your right about sparring but you should have punching skills which you should have learned by hitting something other than a live person. You can't learn to punch great with a live person until you know how to punch great with somehting that doesn't move.

"Introduction, so your saying you get an introduction to something and then just blow by it"

NDL, I don't think KWJ said that. Note he said "I"ntroduction stage rather than Introduction stage.

Go to the Saved Thrds and look at the thread "How to make chi sau/hubud work." Here's a quote (Paul Hopkins):

="Introduce- So if you want to teach a group a jab you tell them the principles of a jab. Demonstrate a jab....Introduce them to the jab. Here I would like you to meet the jab.

Isolate- This is where the physical training begins. You get a training partner and you practice the jab. You could practice the jab on the heavy bag. But only the jab for now because you are Isolating it until you are familiar with this tool.

Get a training partner and progressive resistance until it is somewhat functional and you are ready to use it in sparring.

Integrate- Now you take the tool the you have been introduced to, that you have practiced against a resisting opponent, and integrate it into your personal arsenal.

Now you spar with whatever tools you have plus this new tool, (jab in this case), as it has now become yours. Part of you integral overall game. "=

That thread was many a blue moons ago, so maybe the quote has outdated info on the "I" method now (I think that's what it's called). I don't know. Hope someone will confirm.