Still very impressive when you compare how long Frank had been training at the time next to Goes lifelong BJJ studies.
exactly, you can say the rope escape saved him, but Goes should have NEVER been in any trouble w/ a EXTREMELY GREEN Frank Shamrock.
I wouldn't say Shamrock was that green when he fought Goes, Goes was his 6th pro fight and Frank already had wins over Bas and Suzuki.
"I wouldn't say Shamrock was that green when he fought Goes, Goes was his 6th pro fight and Frank already had wins over Bas and Suzuki."
Yeah, the Goes fight was like Frank's third or fourth fight. I'd call that "green".
Goes pretty much stuck to jiujitsu hiswhole life, Frank had been training full submission for a short time, plus his athleticism helped. He probably accomplished more productive training ina couple of years than goes did in his entire life.
I read somewhere that Ken trained Frank intensively for 6 months, 8 hour training days. Then he shipped Frank off to the Pancrase dojo in Japan where Frank trained intensively under Funaki and Suzuki, again, 8 hour training days, for 6 weeks. Then Frank had his first Pancrase bout.
GotchGracie, Goes was a bjj bb already, so he had training over Frank having a couple of months to train when he got this, his first fight. THAT is a HUGE gap in terms of experience.
the frank pancrase fights ive seen ahvent been that great. fuke just tapped him out on my screen. nevertheless he became the main man for awhile...
Unorthodox is the best way to describe his style (already mentioned earlier in this thread). I've known Frank for a number of years, and was a student for close to 3 years. During that time, I never saw anybody submit him. Get the mount, sure. I honestly don't think Frank even cared. It was the submission that mattered most to Frank, or when traning MMA, its where the maximum amount of damage could be done. It's really hard to describe his style in a way that's understandable without rolling with him. Explosive and unorthodox are the two words (coupled with insane cardio) is the best way to describe Frank.
Horn was not exactly some amateur, he had at least 14 fights under his belt when he fought Frank. He had fought Fulton x 2, Severn, Jason Godsey and Noe Hernandez all before Frank.
As was said earlier, SEG pressured Frank into taking this fight and assured him the fight would be easy. He didn't have any time to study Horn and formulate a specific gameplan either, which is something Shamrock was notorious for.
Frank had a lot going against him in this fight and he still tapped Horn.
"GotchGracie, Goes was a bjj bb already, so he had training over Frank having a couple of months to train when he got this, his first fight. THAT is a HUGE gap in terms of experience. "
oh i'm aware that Goes had been training for much much longer than Shamrock, but people make forget that it was his 6th pro fight when they call him green
"read somewhere that Ken trained Frank intensively for 6 months, 8 hour training days. Then he shipped Frank off to the Pancrase dojo in Japan where Frank trained intensively under Funaki and Suzuki, again, 8 hour training days, for 6 weeks. Then Frank had his first Pancrase bout. "
and too this day Frank says Ken would school him on the mat....if frank is that good then i wonder how good Ken really is a pure submissions....
And Ken got his ass handed to him by Tito while Frank rode Tito around the ring like a pony for 15 minutes untill he gassed,and then handed Tito his own ass.
How about Tito digging his fingers into Franks cut trying to split it open and Frank yelling at him "Thats dirty Tito!"
BJM wasnt too happy with it either he reamed Tito at the end of the round.
Tito, around the time he had his fight w/ Frank, was already very good at grappling. People forget that he had a very competetive match with Ricardo Arona at ADCC. He was also heavier than Frank when they fought. Even so, I think Frank worked his guard well in that fight anyway.
"2 years is a lot of time"
From scratch to becoming a world champ? Really?
Did Frank have any other background before then? Wrestling, tkd, anything?
People always say Frank had problems with BJJ or sub guys (Enson, Horn) but Frank beat and finished them all.
Look at the way he handled (albeit still somewhat inexperienced) Tito. I think for MMA, Frank's ground/sub game was as top notch at the time as could be. It would be interesting to have seen him compete at AD or something but in terms of pure bjj, i remember him saying it wasnt that great in that context but in MMA, his fights/record speaks for itself.
frank lost position alot, but rarely was he in trouble. and he was always working for something. this describes a ton of his fights
frank is amazing. he gives up positions, rests, gets out, does what he wants, and all the while you are uneasy and frustrated. he's that good. rolled with some good damn guys, and wrestled with the best, but franks athleticism is off the charts.