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What I am reading here is that he's saying not to assume ONLY the True Guardant Warde when up against a rapier man, but to shift things up as the situation demands. This suggests that there may be something to Amberger's opinion of the True Guardant vs the Lunge.
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I'm having trouble reconciling that extract you posted to the one I posted earlier:
"You must never use any fight against the long rapier & dagger with your short sword but the variable fight, because your space will be too wide & your time too long, to defend or offend in due time." (Cap 8 : 26)
So Silver seems to be giving to conflicting sets of advice - mix up your wards to keep your opponent guessing (as in the extract your posted) but don't fence against rapier & dagger using any fight but the variable fight.
The section is entitled "Of the short sword & dagger fight against the long sword & dagger or long rapier & poniard". Perhaps the advice you posted is for the fight against the long sword?? I don't know.
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Do you have any thoughts regarding Amberger's opinion on that? [True Guardant vs the Lunge]
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Bearing in mind what I've said above - in that I'm still not sure of what fight(s) Silver wants to meet the rapier with:
A problem I see in defending the thrust/lunge with True Guardant is the ability to be deceived by feints. If you are standing in True Guardant you are closing the line to your left hand side & head. If I thrust anywhere at your body you must break that thrust to your right by moving your hand across from left to right (maintaining the vertical sword that characterises True Guardant). Since I know that is the movement you have to make to defend I would definately have a crack at feinting a thrust to your right hand side to draw your response, cutover and attack to the left of your sword. (is a disengage possible against a verticaly held sword? youd have to draw back your hand...)
Will your space be too long to defend or offend in due time as Silver suggests?
Silvers recommendations against the rapier often mention maintaining 'narrow space' which I take to mean keeping your point close to his point. Then you can break his thrust either way depending on where he attacks.
This is just conjecture. I haven't done enough sword v rapier to say what works and what doesn't and I'm not 100% on what Silver is recommending.
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Interesting--YL and I will have to try that with singlesticks...
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Cool. Just make sure they are long enough. Around 40+ inches of blade length (depending on your height) is where you become able to hit these responses consistently I think.
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Actually, your hand would be in high seconde--prime covers your left (inside line) and seconde covers the right (outside line). Obviously you wouldn't use prime for the original squalembrato defense since it wouldn't allow for the counter-thrust you're talking about (prime would only be good for a parry, followed by a vertical cut to the head as a riposte), hence the "high carte" you mentioned. :-)
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I'm thinking of a prime position similar to the figure on the right - except my hand would be a little higher, my arm more vertical and my point will be lower and in your belly :)
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~pssf/grafix/manual/pssf-cf-1.gif
I think this ward covers the outside line with your hand in prime (especially if you raise your hand a little more so your palm is definately facing to the right). What would you call this ward?
I'm not so good on modern fencing terminology so please forgive my mistakes - and I'm left handed which raises the bar when trying to explain movements to right handers...
Cheers,
Mike
Mike,I'm thinking of a prime position similar to the figure on the right - except my hand would be a little higher, my arm more vertical and my point will be lower and in your belly :)Hmmm... Capo Ferro.OK, what we have here is the prima of the Old Italian school--you can see it in many 16th and 17th century manuals, including Agrippa, Palladini, and Alfieri. Marozzo has a version of it which is closer to your description--i.e., a lower point in my belly :)--called becha cessa, which is essentially the modern saber hanging guard I talked about earlier. Viggiani, on the other hand, has a guard called seconda which roughly corresponds to modern French seconde, but the fighter's body is way more squared up, which strikes me as odd.In any case, I assumed that you were using French definitions, since you were using French spellings, and the posistion of the "carte" you described for the squalembrato defense indeed corresponded with the position of carte or quarte. In any case, if we maintain the consistency of using modern French fencing terms to describe the actions (as per Hutton is his "Olde Sword-Play"), then the "prime" you described (which is certainly known as prima in the Old Italian school) would actually be called a high seconde.I know I posted this a really long time ago, but here's a rundown of the modern French foil/epee parries:1. Prime Covers the low inside line (hand pronated).2. Seconde Covers the low outside line (hand pronated).3. Tierce Covers the high outside line (hand pronated).4. Carte or Quarte Covers the high inside line (hand supinated).5. Quinte Basically a deeper, stronger quarte, with hand in pronation.6. Sixte Covers the high outside line (hand supinated).7. Septime Covers the low inside line (hand supinated).8. Octave Covers the low outside line (hand supinated).Parries #1-4 in saber are essentially the same as those in foil (modified somewhat to deal with both cut and thrust), but parry #5 protects the head, and corresponds to the old "Saint George's Guard".I think this ward covers the outside line with your hand in prime (especially if you raise your hand a little more so your palm is definately facing to the right). What would you call this ward?The Italians of the 16th and 17th centuries would have called it prima, whereas someone trained in modern French fencing would call it Seconde. :-)I'm not so good on modern fencing terminology so please forgive my mistakes - and I'm left handed which raises the bar when trying to explain movements to right handers...AHA--a South Paw, eh? Getting back to Silver, I took the quote I posted from the same section you got your piece from(Cap. 8--short sword vs rapier)!9. Stand not upon guardant fight only, for so he will greatly endanger you out of his other fights because you have made yourself a certain mark to him, for in continuing in that fight only you shall not only weary yourself, but do also exclude yourself from the benefit of the open, variable, & closed fights, & so shall he have four fights to your one, as you may see in the chapter of the short single sword fight in the 15th ground thereof. I dunno--maybe "Variable Fight" can also refer to switching wardes...I'll post more thoughts later.This is a really fun thread!Best Regards,TFS
Beatiful descriptions! In modern French fencing it is a seconde. Thanks!
I'm definately inconsistent in my spellings and pronunciations of guards. I'll try to stick to Italian terms for historical Italian guards from now on :)
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Getting back to Silver, I took the quote I posted from the same section you got your piece from(Cap. 8--short sword vs rapier)!
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Yeah I know I went looking for it. It's a good question for SwordForum I think. I might post it their and post any relevent comments back here.
Cheers,
Mike
I'm definately inconsistent in my spellings and pronunciations of guards. I'll try to stick to Italian terms for historical Italian guards from now on :)Fair enough--just make sure that you mention, for example, "Prima, as in Capo Ferro's or Alfieri's manual." I say that only because you get the occasional oddball definitons, as per Viggiani's work, where his seconda is actually vaguely similar to a modern French (high) seconde, but his prima is TOTALLY different from other Italian primas [which are more like his seconda too :-)]--Viggiani's prima is merely having one's hand on the hilt of the sheathed sword, ready to draw the weapon and deliver an ascending riverso cut across the torso in one fluid motion--almost like the Western equivilent of an ia-jutsu ascending draw with a tachi (drawing "ground to sky")! Yeah I know I went looking for it. It's a good question for SwordForum I think. I might post it their and post any relevent comments back here.Sounds good--let me know what you find.Best,TFS
Last year I would have completely lost, now after a bunch of books, I'm not lost, but it's still very murky. Would anyone care to take a stab (pun intended) at a recommended reading list.
Gerald Boggs
Gerald,In addition to the awesome Secret History of the Sword which you are so fortunate to own, I would recommend the following titles, which you must obtain immediately :-)...The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe by Sydney AngloOld Sword-Play by Sir Alfred Hutton (with a new Forward by Maestro Ramon Martinez)The Sword and the Centuries by Sir Alfred Hutton (was in print as a bargain book by B & N until at least fairly recently--I think you should be able to find a copy)English Martial Arts by Terry BrownThe English Master of Arms by J.D. Aylward (out of print, but perhaps you can find a copy somewhere)Schools and Masters of Fence by Egerton Castle (out of print, but facsimile copies are definitely out there--Like Hutton's workd, this book is somewhat dated, but it still provides a lot of useful info, even though Castle wasn't as progressively-minded as Hutton) In addition, since you are going to take up modern sports fencing, and since I tend to descibe period movements in modern French fencing terms (something I think I actually criticized Hutton for--oops!), you might want some basic text on sports fencing. A good one would be The Art and Science of Fencing by Nick Evangelista--but a word of warning: do NOT take the "History" section of any sports fencing book too seriously, because much of what they say is, frankly, nonsense.I also think that there may be a WMA reading list thread on the "Saved Threads" section.All the Best,David
Thank you. By fortunate luck, I've read several of the books. I picked up The art and science of fencing just last month. Now to read and reread, I've found when I'm reading about a subject with a lot of unfamiliar terms, I need to time to absorb the terms.
Gerald Boggs
Throwing a couple pennies in at lunch...
One thing regarding the speed of cut vs. thrust: some comparisons of the two may relate to relative speed for a given swordsman, rather than between swordsmen. If your point is in line with an opponent, a thrust will usually be faster than a cut, since to cut your sword will have to go somewhere else first; whereas if your point is directed just about anywhere else a cut will be faster, since a cut can start from most anyplace. Between opponents, the relative speed of a cut vs. a thrust depends more on distance, timing, and circumstance of the fight as it progresses than any particular biomechanical comparison.
Variable Fight: I feel it possible that this not only refers to where you are when you are shifting between other wardes, but also the position you're in when you are in the middle of actually doing something.
"Always be fighting from where you are; if you keep trying to get somewhere, a particular stance, a particular distance, before you start fighting, you'll still be trying to get there while your opponent kills you."
- Jrichardson, really