getting stiff armed


Hi folks

Its the cross training karate guy.

I've been having a problem getting in close enough to throw. Last weekend I finally figured out what it is.

My opponent and I will tie up at collar and elbow. If I try to advance, they'll use their arms to keep me from getting close enough to do anything.

Any advice on how to get the arms bent enough to get close?

Mark

You don't have to necessarily get close to throw. Throws like Hiza Guruma, Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, and footsweeps, to name a few, don't require body contact.

Also, if you both have equal grips, it is hard to throw. Try controlling his sleeve (don't let him put it high on your collar).

Ben R.

...what ben said..

and.. your issue is the basic premise behind grip-fighting. you must learn to grip-fight. even if you are only a white belt there is no reason for you not to know how to break-off a lapel grip and cntrol the sleeve. that is mosre important, IMHO, than even knowing a throw as a beginner.

-resnick

Ben

"You don't have to necessarily get close to throw. Throws like Hiza Guruma, Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, and footsweeps, to name a few, don't require body contact."

Not being able to get close has forced me to work on sacrifice throws (which I like an awful lot).

Still, I'd like to know how I could neutralize someone's hold on me.

"Also, if you both have equal grips, it is hard to throw. Try controlling his sleeve (don't let him put it high on your collar)."

Ummmmm, I don't get it. He grabs my collar and I pull down on his sleeve? Its not that simple, is it?

Mark


Ben R.

JoshuaResnick

"and.. your issue is the basic premise behind grip-fighting. you must learn to grip-fight."

I heard the term before-can you explain what it is? I'm starting to get the feeling there's advantages/disadvantages to where you put your hands on someone. Am I right?

"there is no reason for you not to know how to break-off a lapel grip and cntrol the sleeve."

Could you please describe how?

Mark

Ben
"You don't have to necessarily get close to throw. Throws like Hiza Guruma, Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, and footsweeps, to name a few, don't require body contact."

Not being able to get close has forced me to work on sacrifice throws (which I like an awful lot). "

Sutemi waza can work as well, the problem is if you get to rely on them, you won't learn to to normal turning throws, and you Judo will get pretty one dimensional to say the least. Again, you DO NOT have to get close to throw.

It's a common fallacy that you have to pull yourself into uke to throw, and/or get the vaunted "chest to chest" contact. In reality, you don't. Chest to chest or side to chest contact, if it happens, or back to front contact (as in seoi nage) is a result of proper tsukuri/kuzushi. It's very complex to try to explain in words. Hopefully you have a Judo coach who can show you.

Still, I'd like to know how I could neutralize someone's hold on me."

First, intercept his grip before he grabs you. Most common attack is for uke to reach for you with his dominant hand for your lapel (so if he is right handed, he will grab with his right hand). Have your hand up and open, and catch his wrist with both hands when he reaches. If he reaches with his right hand, after you grab his wrist with both hands, push his arm down, hold onto his wrist with your right hand, and grab his sleeve between the elbow and wrist with your left hand. I suggest you move to the left a bit so it is harder for him to grab you with his other hand. Get a double grip of the fabric with your hand so there is no slack. Then reach up and grab his collar at YOUR shoulder level with your right hand.

Try that for a start and see what happens.

"Also, if you both have equal grips, it is hard to throw. Try controlling his sleeve (don't let him put it high on your collar)."

Ummmmm, I don't get it. He grabs my collar and I pull down on his sleeve? Its not that simple, is it?

Mark "

Basically, that is what you do. There are various ways to do it. You need to control his sleeve from the start rather than gripping up equally and then trying to do it.

Hopefully your coach knows how to cut/break various grips, if not, let us know and I am sure we will try to explain.

Ben R.

you can pick-up the book "GRIPS" written by Neil Adams for the Judo Masterclass series/ Ippon Books. you can get it though any number of vendors.. toraki.com, hatshita.com, at local tournaments im sure they will be for sale, and on and on...

explaining these things online is so difficult to do as Ben said earlier.. but, the truth is that gripping and body position is the type of thing that will either make your judo work or not.. every single time i get blaocked coming in for a throw i know it was becuase my positioning was most likely wrong or my gripping sucked.

that just how it goes.

-resnick

My 2cents...

Once you start learn the concept of how to intercept somebodies attempt to grip like Ben was explaining, you have to practice doing that. repetition is going to help make your grip fighting natural and 2nd nature. You can do it for 10 or 15 minutes as a good warmup. You might have to start slow, for instance having somebody reach for your collar slowly. Learn to catch the sleeve/wrist with both hands, and neutralize the grip from there. Of course there's lots more to it, and you'll have to work on getting the gripping advantage, but that is a good start.


RB

Is it legal to grip your opponents wrist? Not the gi, but simply your hand around his wrist?

I am the shido king, I no say anything..

grabbing wrist is legal. grabbing fingers is not. grabbing wrist INSIDE the sleeve is not. grabbing the inside of the sleeve is not. pistol gripping is not. holding a 2 on 1 grip for more than 5 seconds is not. oh, and BENDING the fingers to make him releast his grip-- thats a bangkok penalty.

just for starters. =)
oh, and Ron is absolutely right. repetition is so amazingly important in this. here is a huge difference between understanding how to break a grip and knowing how to break a grip.

-resnick

Ben Reinhardt

"Sutemi waza can work as well, the problem is if you get to rely on them, you won't learn to to normal turning throws"

Hmmmm. I'm not meaning to sound like a smart ass, but what is so important about the normal turning throws?
Wait, before you answer that - what are the normal turning throws? Do you the throws where you put your have your back to your opponent, drive your hips into him and throw him by bending forward at the waist as in hip throw, shoulder throw etc?

"Again, you DO NOT have to get close to throw. "

Now this is interesting. Is this true of all throws or just some? I can't see how its possible to throw someone with o soto gari or hip/shoulder throws and not be close.

Mark

Ben's basics about grip fighting are downright archievable! That's a hint, mods :)

The "stiff-arm question" has got to be one of the most common questions asked here.

wow guys.. I'm really suprised.

kumikata means everything!!! honestly if you can't get the grip you want, How do you throw?

ex. - my buddy, forum member Merryprankster - he is a white belt in judo, purple in bjj, but has excellent grip fighting skills. He is able to hang with much more experienced competition and win because he knows that if they can't get their grip, they can't throw him and he can still use his limited arsenal (2-4 throws) to win!

as a lefty it's easier for me than many others as many times I can let uke get his grip on me and he thinks "how easy" and then I suprise him with left handed grip and quickly rip into my throw before he can figure out that he doesn't have inside control..

grip fighting - very important!!!!

"kumikata means everything!!! honestly if you can't get the grip you want, How do you throw?"

I'm starting to learn that this is really the case. The funny thing is though, my sensei doesn't address it that much and neither do most of the judo books I've seen... at least in any depth.

i guess i'm going to have to start collecting the masterclass series!

Are there any really good videos that focus on grip fighting?

~TT

""Ben Reinhardt
"Sutemi waza can work as well, the problem is if you get to rely on them, you won't learn to to normal turning throws"

Hmmmm. I'm not meaning to sound like a smart ass, but what is so important about the normal turning throws? Wait, before you answer that - what are the normal turning throws?""

It's important for the overall, long term development of your or anybody elses Judo. If you only do sutemi waza, you had be VERY good at it (like Kashiwazaki, but you can bet he is very good at other stuff too).

Seoi Nage, Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, O Goshi, Tai Otoshi, Tsuri Komi Goshi, things like that.

""Do you the throws where you put your have your back to your opponent, drive your hips into him and throw him by bending forward at the waist as in hip throw, shoulder throw etc? ""

See above list. Bending forward at the waist isn't always done.

"Again, you DO NOT have to get close to throw. "

Now this is interesting. Is this true of all throws or just some? I can't see how its possible to throw someone with o soto gari or hip/shoulder throws and not be close.

Mark"

No, you don't have to get close. What I am trying to say is it's more the sequence of events. Most people thin that chest contact is the most important thing. It's important, but the problem is that many folks think you have to slam your chest into the guy, then turn and throw. That happens sometimes, but in reality, you get into the correct position at the right time and, while turning your body, then, after kuzushi happens, you get contact, IF you get it. Getting chest contact is a consequence of everything else, not what you do first.

Ben Reinhardt

Your grip fighting has to be integrated with your normal Judo training from the beginning. Simple stuff and concepts reinforced with drills that get progressively more difficult and complicated at time goes by.

One caveat: Don't get so enamored of grip fighting that it is all you can do. Also, if you get a "superior" grip on a better player, he may well throw you anyway. I let lower rank guys outgrip me on purpose (so they can practice) in randori, then I work to throw them anyway. I've been known to do that in shiai as well. It's kind of like a sucker punch, but it works sometimes.

Ben Reinhardt

most players will have a favorite grip. they will always go for the grip that they want and never settle for anything less. as soon as they get that grip, they become very dangerous. so long as you can constantly keep that grip off you can do well with these players-- all things equal that is.

some players can use several grips. this makes it a bit more difficult to grip-fight with them, but if you are the above type it shouldn't stop you from getting what you want and working your judo.

then there are those who can switch-sides.. go from being a righty to a lefty and back just as easily as anything else. these guys are really, really difficult (for me at least) to deal with. as soon as you feel that you are in a superior position they can switch it up and dump you faster than a girl who didnt put out at prom. the one advantage they give to you is opportunity-- there is a chance to throw them at the very moment they switch grips.

the last type is the junk-grabber. this person really doesnt care where his hands are at all. he'll grab you around the back, the lapel, sleeves, pants, back of the arm, anywhere really and try something that makes you a bit worried. still, the above guys on the list can generally deal with this so long as they are cautious or very focused on opportunities to attack.

-resnick