In a street fight would it be better to train gi or no gi? 
Techniques that work regardless of clothing(natural handles) > techniques that are dependent on clothing(artificial handles).
That said, if you live anywhere the climate isn't conducive to a semi/full-nudist lifestyle, you'd be wise to train both so you learn how to move/defend while someone is grabbing your clothing.
Gi
1. People wear clothes.
2. Gi is much more complicated than nogi. It produces minds that process many different things at once compared to nogi. Having a superior processing speed is an advantage.
3. You want options in self defense situations. Training in the gi provides those options. When you train gi you can always go without grips, in nogi gripping is always off limits.
4. It is not a giant mental leap to go from a sleeve grip to wrist control or gripping the elbow to an overhook. You will not lose any knowledge once the gi is stripped off. For nogi people used to "natural grips," actual grips will be more effective.
Obviously all JUST my opinion. I don't train bjj for self defense, I train because it's fun.
Anyway, the right answer is train judo. ;)
if you don't train both then you're letting yourself down - simple as that. I hadn't trained no-gi for 6 months and went this weekend to train with a mate who does predominantly no-gi. I got smashed.
I've now committed to training no-gi more regularly
No gi is much more effective for street fighting if you lived in a nudist colony.
C'mon, I love no gi but rolling and not being able to grab the shirt or shorts at all is not very realistic if you are concerned with using jiu-jitsu for a street fight. MMA is a sport, it would be completely different without a cage to use and with any clothing to make it more street realistic, without the knowledge that 3 people are judging to see who wins each individual round etc etc.
For an experiment put on a t shirt and shorts and roll while allowing grabbing of the clothes. I'll bet anybody that it'll feel more similar to rolling with the gi than without one (shorts, no shirt, no grabbing)
^You're not considering strikes at all.
Repeat your experiment, only with strikes. The instinct to grab the clothing(ie: a habit of gi grappling) often leaves a person 'stuck'(for lack of a better term) in no man's land(ie: an arm's length), where they are at risk of eating strikes. No compare that to nogi(or rather, 'wrestling' lol) and you see the lack of artificial handles requires one to maintain a tigher game in order to control an opponent, hence there is less(zero) vulnerability to strikes because they're not stuck in no man's land.
Missing Glove Tape - ^You're not considering strikes at all.
Repeat your experiment, only with strikes. The instinct to grab the clothing(ie: a habit of gi grappling) often leaves a person 'stuck'(for lack of a better term) in no man's land(ie: an arm's length), where they are at risk of eating strikes. No compare that to nogi(or rather, 'wrestling' lol) and you see the lack of artificial handles requires one to maintain a tigher game in order to control an opponent, hence there is less(zero) vulnerability to strikes because they're not stuck in no man's land.
I am considering strikes as well. Have you seen a street fight? You haven't seen someone get grabbed and yanked around while being punched with the other arm? Similar to a hockey fight. Training in an environment where you are not ever wearing a shirt and are not allowed to grab any piece of clothing is not realistic. I know a lot of police officers, prison guards and bouncers. They grab clothes all the damn time, if you don't have any experience fighting or defending yourself, just trust me then.
People get a misconception that grabbing clothes means you are going to play some homo shit like the spider guard, or use both hands to do a cross choke on a t shirt. The spider guard has nearly ZERO application to fighting except for the fact that you can practice using your feet to defend punches, that's pretty much it. I'm not talking about that grabbing clothes in that sense.
Do greco roman clinches but allow grabbing of the clothes and see how different it is. You can grab the back of ones collar and snap them down, control them with that hand and punch the hell out of them with your other hand if you want. When you get a dominant position and just want to control someone you can do it much easier when you grab the clothes, whether it's from mount, side mount or knee on belly etc.
You can create distance with a grab, it changes things a lot. At the Gracie Academy and Valente school in Miami they punch and kick, with the gi on.
So often you see how street fight ends. That's with someone's t shirts all fucked up and ripped. You see what I'm saying. Imagine if you had some knowledge of how to use those grabs instead of just grabbing and going wild like someone with no experience.
I'd like to end this by saying.... I'm right = )
CompanyBlue - You haven't seen someone get grabbed and yanked around while being punched with the other arm? Similar to a hockey fight.
Sure I have. And what happens just as often to the grabber as happens to the grabee? The lack of control that comes from being stuck in no man's land means they eat strikes.
Watch some of the old Lumax Cup bouts for examples of this phenomena. You see the guys with gi-only backgrounds having a tough time closing the distance/controlling their opponents in a striking environment with gi-clad competitors.
CompanyBlue - Training in an environment where you are not ever wearing a shirt and are not allowed to grab any piece of clothing is not realistic.
It's no more unrealistic than the opposite, which you're suggesting. Why? Because the nature of not relying on artificial handles is fundamentally safer and more reliable.
CompanyBlue -if you don't have any experience fighting or defending yourself, just trust me then.
How 'bout no? ;)
CompanyBlue - People get a misconception that grabbing clothes means you are going to play some homo shit like the spider guard, or use both hands to do a cross choke on a t shirt. The spider guard has nearly ZERO application to fighting except for the fact that you can practice using your feet to defend punches, that's pretty much it. I'm not talking about that grabbing clothes in that sense.
Has nothing to do with the point I was making re: instincts, which is the tendency to get stuck in no man's land.
CompanyBlue - Do greco roman clinches but allow grabbing of the clothes and see how different it is.
That's just it. It's not that different.
CompanyBlue - You can grab the back of ones collar and snap them down, control them with that hand and punch the hell out of them with your other hand if you want.
Show me an example of a GR wrestler getting ragdolled with the gi/clothing that lends credibility to your argument, and maybe I'll believe you. ;)
CompanyBlue - When you get a dominant position and just want to control someone you can do it much easier when you grab the clothes, whether it's from mount, side mount or knee on belly etc.
And exactly what is the hypothetical opponent doing in this situation while you're 'controlling' them by way of not defending your face while controlling them with their clothes? Again, you're talking about a lot more space in between bodies that allows one to strike/scramble easier than they would otherwise be able to when dealing with an opponent employing a tighter, more contorlling game via natural handles. Plus, you're also making a false analogy re: gis and street clothing, which are not objectively the same re: strength(ie: shirts/pants/jeans rip pretty easily, while gis do not).
CompanyBlue - At the Gracie Academy and Valente school in Miami they punch and kick, with the gi on.
And? Both are reknowned for producing students with exceptional standup grappling that somehow validates gi training in this context?
CompanyBlue - So often you see how street fight ends. That's with someone's t shirts all fucked up and ripped. You see what I'm saying.
I see you contradicting yourself re: comparing gis to street clothes. Of course, anything can work. But again, the fact that clothing tends to rip just confirms the inherent flaw in attempting to rely on artificial handles in fighting/self-defense situations.
CompanyBlue - Imagine if you had some knowledge of how to use those grabs instead of just grabbing and going wild like someone with no experience.
And now imagine the opposite, with you relying on artificial handles against someone with knowledge/experience who's wearing a t-shirt and shorts. I'm sure you can see the potential for things to go real bad for you, real fast.
CompanyBlue - I'd like to end this by saying.... I'm right = )
Of course you're not. But thanks for playing! ;)
The OP is asking about a street fight. Not an MMA contest. Street fights last maybe 30 seconds, usually less. These instincts you are talking about. It's a bit of a stereotype. There IS a problem with BJJ today. No doubt. Nobody is teaching self defense anymore and nobody is practicing it. There are black belts who never train the self defense, never trained rolling with strikes, don't practice clinching against someone throwing strikes and throwing kicks. Too much emphasis on points. People think they win because they got a sweep or passed someones guard. I only mention the Gracie and Valente schools because they do roll with strikes and always practice closing the distance against punches, kicks and knees.
I can hold a guy on the street with one hand on a knee, one hand of his shoulder and one knee on his chest and the fight is fucking over, and I'm using grips. I can hit him if I want, I can do whatever I want because I have full control. How silly is it for you to ask what my opponent is doing while I am controlling them and not protecing my face? Have you actually trained? I'm almost 20 years into this game my friend. When I say "control", that means I can't get hit homie...and if I do, it's not going to do shit to me because I have "control"... Playing an open guard is not control. Control is where you are in a great position and your opponent is fucked and at a disadvantage where his strikes are going to lack leverage to hurt. Control means I can hit him more effectively than he can hit me. What is your definition of control? LMAO. Maybe you don't get people in these positions often, but let me tell you, it feels great to be able to do it.
I've seen Lumax Cup's, but we are talking about street fights aren't we? Not a sport like that. I saw with my own eyes a Judo guy throw 3 people in the street one after another and the fight was over. The guys he threw were NOT wearing gis. But he still was able to do it and I know those grips he trained helped him throw those guys. I got countless stories of law enforcement folks trained in jiujitsu who aid themselves by grabbing clothes. I know a prison guard who has used collar chokes against 250 pound thugs. Do you follow?
I'm not saying you have to wear a gi, shit, well over 50% of my time has been without a gi. I'm saying if you focused on street fights/street defense, you can't train no gi the way it is taught at schools...which is no t shirt and no grabbing of the shorts. If there is a t shirt, you still don't ever grab it and are never taught anything if your is grabbed or how to use grabs to help you. Just saying...
This thread isn't about what it better for competition fight, gi or no gi. He's asking about street fights.
I should have known better than to argue with a 10'er
Slightly off topic, but just out of curiosity...
Are there any BJJ-based "no gi" schools that teach a self-defense curriculum...?
shen -
Slightly off topic, but just out of curiosity...
Are there any BJJ-based "no gi" schools that teach a self-defense curriculum...?
All of the nogi schools in places where spandex shirts are common attire will teach s/d classes.
Italy? France? San Fransisco?
CompanyBlue - The OP is asking about a street fight. Not an MMA contest. Street fights last maybe 30 seconds, usually less. These instincts you are talking about.
And instincts tend to be fairly consistent, do they not? Especially across ranges(ie: the old maxim "train as you fight, fight as you train")?
CompanyBlue - It's a bit of a stereotype. There IS a problem with BJJ today. No doubt. Nobody is teaching self defense anymore and nobody is practicing it. There are black belts who never train the self defense, never trained rolling with strikes, don't practice clinching against someone throwing strikes and throwing kicks. Too much emphasis on points. People think they win because they got a sweep or passed someones guard.
And there's usually at least a little truth to each stereotype, isn't there? So again, talking in terms of instincts relative gi vs no gi, I'd personally err on the side of training/techniques that is no dependent on artificial handles and does not leave me 'stuck' in no man's land to eat strikes. But that's just me. If your mileage and priorities vary, then so be it. ;)
CompanyBlue - I only mention the Gracie and Valente schools because they do roll with strikes and always practice closing the distance against punches, kicks and knees.
Fair enough.
And to be sure, I've seen clips of the Valente's sparring classes and being a GJJ fanboy I wouldn't hesitate to train at either school.
CompanyBlue - I can hold a guy on the street with one hand on a knee, one hand of his shoulder and one knee on his chest and the fight is fucking over, and I'm using grips. I can hit him if I want, I can do whatever I want because I have full control.
Clearly you're projecting here. It adds absolutely nothing to the strength of your argument, so please, just stop.
CompanyBlue - How silly is it for you to ask what my opponent is doing while I am controlling them and not protecing my face? Have you actually trained? I'm almost 20 years into this game my friend. When I say "control", that means I can't get hit homie...and if I do, it's not going to do shit to me because I have "control"... Playing an open guard is not control. Control is where you are in a great position and your opponent is fucked and at a disadvantage where his strikes are going to lack leverage to hurt. Control means I can hit him more effectively than he can hit me. What is your definition of control? LMAO. Maybe you don't get people in these positions often, but let me tell you, it feels great to be able to do it.
And here we go with appeal to authority #2(I didn't bother to mention the first one that associates you with the 'tacticool' crowd because I was hoping to avoid the subsequent the conversation devolving into a defensive display of projection, which you're doing now). sigh
The fact that you're already resorting to this kind of response means you're not understanding the point in question, hence you're arguing from a disadvantaged position.
CompanyBlue - I've seen Lumax Cup's, but we are talking about street fights aren't we? Not a sport like that.
Sure we're talking about the much-lauded "street fight" scenario. But does that necessarily preclude skill from being skill regardless of enviorment, or that the Lumax bouts are not, in and of themselves, perfect illustrations of the comparison(s) you were drawing between the gi and street clothes??
CompanyBlue - I saw with my own eyes a Judo guy throw 3 people in the street one after another and the fight was over. The guys he threw were NOT wearing gis. But he still was able to do it and I know those grips he trained helped him throw those guys.
Okay, I'll bite just this once. Which throws did super judo(ka) use in this epic multiple attacker encounter?
CompanyBlue - I got countless stories of law enforcement folks trained in jiujitsu who aid themselves by grabbing clothes. I know a prison guard who has used collar chokes against 250 pound thugs. Do you follow?
Appeal to authority #3. But what's your point? There are just as many incidences wherein LEOs(and others) struggle to control a suspect via artificial handles and end up paying for it by eating strikes, being ragdolled, and worse...especially when we're talking about officers relying on inherently unreliable handles when they themselves are often much smaller than the suspects they're called to control/arrest.
CompanyBlue - I'm not saying you have to wear a gi, shit, well over 50% of my time has been without a gi. I'm saying if you focused on street fights/street defense, you can't train no gi the way it is taught at schools...which is no t shirt and no grabbing of the shorts. If there is a t shirt, you still don't ever grab it and are never taught anything if your is grabbed or how to use grabs to help you. Just saying...
And this implies what, exactly? Again, show me an example of a GR wrestler getting ragdolled in a gi/clothing that suggests relying on natural handles in training is, as a general rule, less reliable than articial handles. You can't. And as I've already said, the reason for it is the nature of natural handles being tighter and more controlling, hence they work regardless of what an opponent is wearing and does not produce instincts that lead to one getting stuck in no man's land to eat strikes.
CompanyBlue - I should have known better than to argue with a 10'er
Whatvever helps you feel better about yourself and your training, bro. ;)
fuck me I'd hate to get stuck in a lift with you. are you unemployed, lonely ..
thebasher - fuck me I'd hate to get stuck in a lift with you. are you unemployed, lonely ..
qft
guys who train with the gi are always better in bjj.
even the glorious eddie bravo went from white to black with the gi
not to mention no gi is all about "dont grab the clothing" (shorts, rash guard) - useless unless im fighting a greased up naked man.
thebasher - fuck me I'd hate to get stuck in a lift with you. are you unemployed, lonely ..
No i have a job
jakesheildseyepoke -thebasher - fuck me I'd hate to get stuck in a lift with you. are you unemployed, lonely ..No i have a job
is this your trolling account ?
jakesheildseyepoke - In a street fight would it be better to train gi or no gi?
Do you typically fight naked men?
Or clothed ones?
Most of you seem to be inadvertently making the argument that wrestling and judo are superior to either for self defense.
Missing Glove Tape - ^You're not considering strikes at all.
Repeat your experiment, only with strikes. The instinct to grab the clothing(ie: a habit of gi grappling) often leaves a person 'stuck'(for lack of a better term) in no man's land(ie: an arm's length), where they are at risk of eating strikes. No compare that to nogi(or rather, 'wrestling' lol) and you see the lack of artificial handles requires one to maintain a tigher game in order to control an opponent, hence there is less(zero) vulnerability to strikes because they're not stuck in no man's land.
Nice try, but no.
How is it your nogi training is going to work when you have an opponent grabbing your clothes?
Its funny, we get GOOD nogi guys who have trained 2 - 3 years in the gym,
and they can't beat 6 month white belts, the grips are too big of a change for them.
So how would THAT mindset help you in the real world?
More importantly,
No Gi guys aren't even better at No Gi BJJ.
Look at ADCC, the best of the best grapplers.
Look at the last DECADE, 1 or 2 No Gi guys have won at Absolute. In a decade.
How is it that No Gi is so superior, and No Gi guys aren't even winning at thier own game?