Thank you scythrop, but I rather wait and talk about the nut shot AFTER I see the fight.
I did see the other fight, and it looked to me that Yoshida did lie. Nevertheless, it would not change a thing, because I felt that he totally dominated Royce in that match, and he won it with or without the alleged choke.
A grappling match that does not end with a submission will always be judged subjectively, unless it is a Judo match where an Ippon will finish the match - the objective was accomplished.
In a grappling match like the Yoshida - Royce 1 it would require total dominnation or a submission for it to be resolved.
I dont think that choke was in, based on my experience on the mat. Yet, subjectively, I feel that Yoshida sould be awarded a victory, since he dominated Royce.
As for this fight, I know better than trust the written accounts in the forum, so I will wait to see the match.
IF Royce did hit Yoshida's groin, we will never know if it was intentional. Unless if he comes and say it was so.
We will never know if the choke on the first match was sunk or not.
Point is, in the first match. there were rules. They were agreed upon by both parties: NO INTERRUPTION BY THE REFEREE.
And we all saw what happened.
Further: would you go into a fight with such a strategy? You know your opponent wears a cup... To bet everything on the success of such a kick would be stupid.
I think that suggesting that Royce's intention going in was to give him a kick to the groin is a little far fetched. As far fetched as some BJJ guys saying that he did not want to submit Yoshida, just punish him. He didn finish Yoshida because he couldn't.
IF, and only IF, the account we all read here (salvo if you saw the fight live) are correct, it seems to me that a foul may/may not have happened, but did not appear to have any bearing on the rest of the fight. I have been hit there b4 in a match, hurts like a mother, but after given time to recover I was fine.
IF the accounts are correct, Royce dominated the match, and Yoshida gassed at the end.
That is nothing to be so excited about, guys...
You win some, you lose some, you draw some, that's the game.
For a while, Royce was king. Invinvible.
Then, he lost...
So now, Sakuraba is invincible...
Then, he lost. Several times.
What about Kerr, Coleman? Invincibles!
Then....
No one is going to win all the time, and even Vanderley (he already lost some fights earlier in his career) will get beat by the "next" invinvible guy.
Royce is hardly my hero.
I like Minotauro and Bustamante better, even though they have lost a few. I think they embody the spirit I look for in a good BJJ fighter.
But I am forced to admire Royce's accomplishments, and it is not hard for me to do so. He never ran from a fight, was champion several times, and came back after losing. That is ok with me. He was pissed at what happened in the last fight, and it looked like he had had the right to be.
Once the video of this fight comes up, if we find out that he really dominated Yoshida, what will it prove?
That BJJ is better than Judo?
That Royce is GOD?
That Royce is a punk?
Come on, we have more brains than that...
That seems very reasonable. I'm assuming the kicks were intentional based on the fight recaps on insidefighting.com and forum chat. Probably best to wait until we've seen the fight for ourselves before jumping too swiftly to conclusions, as you say.
Agreed.
Even then, it will always be hard to know if the kick was intentional...
Accidents happen.
"xxx75: there is no doubt that Yoshida was kicked directly in the groin."
I disagree.
I haven't seen it.
I believe you have not seen it either.
We are gathering this from other people's accounts...
"The picture alone may not be conclusive."
Hmmm.. I concede, but I always tought that a picture was worth a thousand words...
In the pic, it surely doesn look like a groin shot.
"The referee (or judge) saw fit to give Royce a yellow card, which means they thought it was intentional. Since they were there, then their assessment deserves to be taken seriously unless there are good reasons to do otherwise."
There are good reasons to do otherwise.
Check recent history of matches in Pride.
"So the evidence shows that yes, Royce kicked Yoshida in the groin, and yes, it was intentional."
I will accept that there is evidence that Royce hit Yoshida in the jewels.
But I cannot see evidence that it was intentional.
How can one say it was intentional? Did anyone see Royce training specifically for that and forgot to tell us?
My friend, during the last Soccer World Cup, during a Brasil x England game, a brazilian guy named Ronaldinho Gaúcho kicked a foul shot from a very long distance. The Brittish goalie was a little off, and the ball, despite de distance, went in in the only possible place for a score, and he scored.
He swore up and down that he meant to place the ball there, but we all took it with a grain of salt. And we are fanatics for soccer down here :)
Meaning, it will always be a matter of OPINION if he meant to do it or not, unless some insider show us some kind of hard proof (I find that difficult).
Peace.
"Not at all. The addition of striking was an agreed-upon difference. Both fighters expected and prepared for that divergence from the conditions of the first match."
The mandatory wearing of the gi was also an agreed upon difference in the rules I believe. If I'm not mistaken, their first fight was a gi match, while their second match gis were obviously optional.
"Royce ball-kicking Yoshida = Royce Gracie Jiu-Cheatsu
Wow. Some true warrior Royce Gracie turned out to be."
Without seeing the fight for ourselves, we can't judge whether the kick was intentional (even with seeing it we can't be sure) or how much of an effect it had on the outcome of the fight. It seems that after the kick, Yoshida came out strong, knocking Royce down and getting the advantage on the ground for a bit before standing back up. So just maybe his fatigue came about naturally from the fight, working hard against Royce, and the effects of Royce's attacks on him.
"Also, if the scoring was based on rounds, it still would have been a draw with Yoshida winning the first round easily and Royce winning the second round. "
Not necessarily. Some accounts I've seen suggest that Royce won the first round besides the groin shot, so that could've been scored even, with Royce winning the second giving him the decision. This doesn't matter though, there were no judges so its a draw.
Why wasn't Yoshida wearing a groin guard or cup?
After all it was a "MMA" fight - both had gloves and
mouth guards - it would stand to reason that with
kicking involved Yoshida should have been
wearing the appropriate safety gear.
Royce has worn that gi like a badge of honor for 10 years. I think he looked, petty, childish and unsportsmanlike for yanking it off at the last minute.
Having watched the video multiple times, I can say with certainty
that the kick was definately to the jewels. I also believe that it was
not intentional, but cant say for sure because I cannot read
Royce's mind. None of you can either.
God, I hope the video arrives on the net soon so at least this part
of the fight analysis will be put to bed.
i think he just has bad aim. remember when he kneed Sak in the nuts
A short clip of the groin kick is now on the UG
http://imageshack.us/files/royce-kick-yoshida.gif
He aimed that kick right at Yoshida's nuts.
It DEFINATELY hit the groin area.
As anybody here that has been hit there knows, it doesn't need to hit square to hurt, but that one is RIGHT ON THE JEWELS! No doubt in my mind.
Now, if that was intentional we don't really know. There is just no way to tell....
It did hit though, and cup and all, it must hurt like a mother!
But as I understand Yoshida had time to recover, and that had no bearing on the outcome of the fight.
Congrats to both.