Good idea to end belt promotion questions?

My academy has recently gone to a similar system and I am conflicted. While it doesnt affect me personally I cant help but think newer students are catching the short end.

When I started jiu jitsu it was explained to me that I would be promoted when the instructor felt I was ready. I took this to mean when I was of sufficient skill level and imho this should be the ONLY factor in determining belt rank.

I understand it can be difficult to keep track of each students progress especially when you have 100+ students but that is, again imho, a large part of what a black belt instructor is paid to do.

Minimum/maximum time frames cause more problems than they fix. If you explain to a guy that by X time he should be ready for blue but when time comes he clearly isnt there is a lot of pressure to gift him the belt especially when he has put in work.

Two examples from my gym:

1- about 6 months into my training a guy joins up and takes to bjj like water. Minimal(like 2 weeks) hs wrestling experience, he just soaked everything up. 3 weeks in he was beating me. Starts wrecking at tournaments. 3 months in he gets his blue. Ridiculously fast? It would have been criminal to let that kid compete at white belt. In a year he won some big ibjjf tournys and has won pans and nogi worlds(both at purple) since.

2- Average size guy in his thirties, athletic(fireman) has been training about a year and a half. Complete opposite of the first guy. Bjj is hard for him to compute. The kind whos will to learn gets in the way of his learning. He comes 1-3x a week but after all this time still spazzes and cannot get the better of any white belt w/o using size/strength. Im not claiming to be a apt judge of anyones skill but the guy struggles w the kimura from guard, still tries to bench press guys off side control and is stiff as a board when rolling. Well, he recently got his blue belt with a group of guys who reached the same time in grade at white belt. Phone Post

^Basically, I would be my preference for an instructor to keep tabs on students progress and promote when they reach the adequate level of skill.  Who judges what the adequate level is?  The black belt you are paying to teach you and evaluate you.

I dont want a belt for showing up and I dont want one for being a nice guy and anyone who feels they deserve a belt for either simply doesnt.  As a BJJ student and consumer I would like to receive a belt when I am ready.

Am I completely off the deep end?  If so someone enlighten me.

N5Z - 

My academy has recently gone to a similar system and I am conflicted. While it doesnt affect me personally I cant help but think newer students are catching the short end.

When I started jiu jitsu it was explained to me that I would be promoted when the instructor felt I was ready. I took this to mean when I was of sufficient skill level and imho this should be the ONLY factor in determining belt rank.

I understand it can be difficult to keep track of each students progress especially when you have 100+ students but that is, again imho, a large part of what a black belt instructor is paid to do.

Minimum/maximum time frames cause more problems than they fix. If you explain to a guy that by X time he should be ready for blue but when time comes he clearly isnt there is a lot of pressure to gift him the belt especially when he has put in work.

Two examples from my gym:

1- about 6 months into my training a guy joins up and takes to bjj like water. Minimal(like 2 weeks) hs wrestling experience, he just soaked everything up. 3 weeks in he was beating me. Starts wrecking at tournaments. 3 months in he gets his blue. Ridiculously fast? It would have been criminal to let that kid compete at white belt. In a year he won some big ibjjf tournys and has won pans and nogi worlds(both at purple) since.

2- Average size guy in his thirties, athletic(fireman) has been training about a year and a half. Complete opposite of the first guy. Bjj is hard for him to compute. The kind whos will to learn gets in the way of his learning. He comes 1-3x a week but after all this time still spazzes and cannot get the better of any white belt w/o using size/strength. Im not claiming to be a apt judge of anyones skill but the guy struggles w the kimura from guard, still tries to bench press guys off side control and is stiff as a board when rolling. Well, he recently got his blue belt with a group of guys who reached the same time in grade at white belt. Phone Post


actually, i see no issues with the belt promotions of both guys. as they are reflective of the the promoted belts of themselves.
i think bj penn said that he doesnt expect all black belts to be world champions, but rather, black belt versions of themselves.
i interpret this to mean that they are an experienced practitioner compared to when they started. in all forms of the art.

if u take a young teenager and have them train consistently, then by their early 20s, they will be pretty damned good.
if u take a 30 something yo guy, and then add the same time frame, then they will be pretty beat up, but they will definitely know something about the art, unless they r a total retard

A while ago, I saw this breakdown on a discussion here as to what each belt meant skill wise, rather than time in grade. I really agree with it, so this is how I explain it to my students, also that they must be able to roll competively with other people of that next rank, and then emphasize how hard it is to get a belt in BJJ. This way they are focused on their skills and not a time frame.

Blue belt:
One side of your game has to be really sharp, top or bottom so that you are getting dangerous with it. In practice I notice guard players get noticed more easily for being technical. I've seen guys get the promotion for their top game or being adequate at both top and bottom if not having a decisive advantage.

Purple belt: you've become more well rounded on top and bottom so you're not at a disadvantage at either. At this point you probably know most of the techniques your instructor has to teach.

Brown belt: from purple to Brown is about refining your game into something that can be used to compete at a higher level. Taking the moves you already do and taking your timing and ability to the next level. This is why purple can be one of the longest belts.

Black: Brown to black is like a stop over where you really polish up to be ready for black belt. Fix all the small things, make adjustments to strategy.


This always seemed like a good outlook to me. Phone Post

I'm not an instructor, but I do run a sales team for a tech company and have about 80 people that report into me.

The BIGGEST lesson i've learned regarding promotions at my company, are to not specify black and white guidelines. This has gotten me into a world of hurt over the years, and i'm all about leaving it vague now. If someone wants a promotion and asks what they have to do, I tell them to continue to hit numbers and over perform.

I think it should be the same in BJJ. Especially if you don't need to cater to the masses to try and make $$ from your gym.

I have looked into a few area GB academies and I swear they obey that exact guideline. Seems like every month they are promoting  someone to brown or black belt.

I'm not GB, but I think the idea of using tome lines as the main promotion criteria is very arbitrary. People are different and will progress at different rates.

Certain backgrounds will also allow some to progress much faster. Like college wrestlers, judo black belts, and good sambo guys. There is no reason to artificially hold these people back if they clearly have the required skills and techniques. And some people with certain physical limitations will take longer. They need to improve not only their mental understanding of the techniques, but also get their bodies to the point where they can physically apply them.

Take an obese student who is able to demonstrate basic techniques, but in rolling will gas in 30 seconds. The result of this is that the student doesn't apply the techniques in rolling. For that particular student it is appropriate for cardio to be an element of his belt promotion requirements.

On the other side is a great wrestler who smashes everyone at the school with wrestling. If he doesn't demonstrate good BJJ technique in the process, then he should wait for the belt until he does.

When you treat everyone the same you don't address the individual issues that each student has.

When I started, I was told that the following was a general guideline for time in rank:


White- 6-18 months
Blue- 2-4 years
Purple- 2-4 years
Brown 6-18 months

Now, I was a brown belt longer than any other belt and so I didn't exactly fit into the above criteria, but it worked for me. I think skill and time in rank are both critical components.

Also, never knew when I was getting promoted, it was always a surprise.

CJJScout - "I think skill and time in rank are both critical components"

Honest question:  Why do you feel time in rank is a critical component?  In what instance should someone who has the skill level not be promoted because he lacked the time in rank?  Or are you saying that someone with enough time in rank should be promoted even if they dont have the skill?

N5Z - 

CJJScout - "I think skill and time in rank are both critical components"

Honest question:  Why do you feel time in rank is a critical component?  In what instance should someone who has the skill level not be promoted because he lacked the time in rank?  Or are you saying that someone with enough time in rank should be promoted even if they dont have the skill?


I think there are a bunch of reasons why holding someone in a rank can be beneficial:

1) This can decrease ego (not tapping, rolling like a spazz, etc)- if you know that no matter how much you tap your training partner, you will still be on a fair promotion time line, this can hopefully promote smarter, and more mutually beneficial training.

2) There is no ambiguity about when you are promoted. There is no anxiety, animosity, or thoughts that someone is getting promoted because your teacher has favoritism, etc.

3) As others have mentioned, and I agree 110% having short time frames is horrendous. But why can't gifted, talented athletes abide by fair time standards?

Do people who join Karate, TKD, and other Martial Arts bitch when they dont get their belts when they think the "deserve it"?

If these guys are so talented- then they should be even more dedicated- and my time frame would be cut in half for them (if they are training 5-6 times a week).

If they are talented but cannot train that much, then I really don't think they need to complain about not being promoted fast enough.

If you set fair, consistent, guidelines, right from the beginning for everyone to see- then nobody should ever bitch- the D1 wrestler, or the 105 lbs women.

Once again, these are my "fair" timelines - training 3 times a week (divide in half if you train 6 times a week)

Beginner to Blue belt = 2 years
Blue to Purple = 6 years total
Purple to Brown: 10 years total
Brown to Black: 14 years total

Honestly, I'd probably quit your gym and find a new school if I was forced to adhere to a standard timeline. That's like punishing the whole class because one kid talks too much. Didn't we get past that in kindergarden?

Two different people, each training 3 times per week, might have very a different progression. I know guys who have been stuck at blue belt for many years because they've never quite turned the corner into a more advanced game, while other guys advance really fast because they have a strong athletic background, watch all the videos, get a training partner and drill on their own, etc.

It isn't just about the time you spend at the academy, it's about how much time you invest studying Jiu Jitsu, reading, watching, thinking, visualizing. Some people are content just hitting class, without giving their game any thought outside of class, while others obsess about it. The later should progress faster.

I have no problem with having a general time range showing the progression of the average person. But to hold back someone who is clearly at a certain level just because they're 6 months short of the average is wrong. It rewards the wrong value--time, rather than rewarding the correct values--skill, dedication, technical mastery, etc. It lumps everyone into the same basket, regardless of whether someone trains harder than others.

A better approach would be to have technical and performance requirements. If someone accomplishes in 6 months what another accomplishes in 3 years, so be it.

Most Americans have this entitlement issue. Personally I don't like fixed timelines. I come from where if coach thinks u r ready, then u r. If not, then not. Phone Post

Skill and understanding should be the only guidelines for promotion IMO.

If someone can perform and understand to a certain level then they are at that level. It doesn't matter if they've trained 6 weeks or 6 years. Phone Post

I promote when they can wear the new belt into another, high skilled gym and no one would question it. I have promoted 5 blue belts in the last year, three of them went and won tournaments at blue within a month of their promotion, the others did medal.  I also only promote with the signature of my instructor. ( I am a 4 stripe brown, he is a third degree Black). I always check with him first, he signs the ibjjf registrations.

I have noticed a lot of the type of people that are so obsessed with when they get their blue, stop training right after they get it

 

Kying418,

I see your point in developing a belt promotion timeframe for Bjj.

I personally think the student really needs to understand the whole purpose of belt promotions before they get all caught up in the process of receiving belts.

Obviously the belt promotion system is meant to reward progress. So for the student it is suppose to represent progressing from through stages or levels of skill.

But belt promotion also represents an incentive for several fundamental things such as committment, dedication, stick to it ness (for lack of a better word), disciple.

From an instructors perspective the belt system is the best way to ensure consistency, hard work, dedication from the student. Holding back promotion is, in my opinion, one way to get a student to do whatever the instructor deems necessary to meet the instructors's expectations.

With that said I think the timeframe you're proposing is more or less for the instructor to control the student and get the student to focus themselves and dedicate their time, energy and effort then a true representation of how long it takes become good at Bjj.

Thanks everyone for their opinions and responses. I appreciate it- and will continue to think about the best way to do belt promotions at my school (while getting a bunch of input from my own teacher as well).

m.g - Kying418,

I see your point in developing a belt promotion timeframe for Bjj.

I personally think the student really needs to understand the whole purpose of belt promotions before they get all caught up in the process of receiving belts.

Obviously the belt promotion system is meant to reward progress. So for the student it is suppose to represent progressing from through stages or levels of skill.

But belt promotion also represents an incentive for several fundamental things such as committment, dedication, stick to it ness (for lack of a better word), disciple.

From an instructors perspective the belt system is the best way to ensure consistency, hard work, dedication from the student. Holding back promotion is, in my opinion, one way to get a student to do whatever the instructor deems necessary to meet the instructors's expectations.

With that said I think the timeframe you're proposing is more or less for the instructor to control the student and get the student to focus themselves and dedicate their time, energy and effort then a true representation of how long it takes become good at Bjj.

The better word you are lacking is "persistence" Phone Post

Promote by skill. Skill can be teaching prowess, rolling proficiency, or a combination of the 2.

Promoting on a time frame works great, looks how successful tkd belt factories are... Phone Post

FreestyleJJ - 

I think that's a hard thing to guaruntee. I've been teaching since I was a blue belt, Brown now and always left it to higher ups to rank my students.

How is it fair to a naturally talented guy who works hard to wait 2 years to get his blue belt if he is blue belt skill at one year?

Also there are some guys who are just slow learners. If someone is consistent, I think anyone could be blue belt by 2 years, but its hard to guaruntee that no matter how good a teacher you have. Some students are dense to be blunt. I've had guys who I taught for a year straight, they had to review all their basic holds every practice. Then we get to a tournament and they couldn't remember what a key lock was. Some people may never be a blue or purple belt. Phone Post


I SO get what Freestyle wrote; very truthful on-the money commentary.

Akston - 

Promote by skill. Skill can be teaching prowess, rolling proficiency, or a combination of the 2.

Promoting on a time frame works great, looks how successful tkd belt factories are... Phone Post


I agree- except my proposed time frame is actually quite long. I don't think anyone (except for the few that are mentally challenged at bjj) will be promoted too fast.

"How is it fair to a naturally talented guy who works hard to wait 2 years to get his blue belt if he is blue belt skill at one year?"

My time line is based on someone training 3x a week. If they train 5-6 times a week, then it is cut in half.

Anyone that trains hard (which I believe is 5-6 times a week), will be rewarded with a blue belt in 12 months.