2017, do a Gracie family tourney using the old rules. No time limit, in the gi, open hand strikes. Who wins? To me finals is Roger vs Ryron. Rener vs Kron for 3 rd place.
Roger vs kron in the finals. Roger cinches it
I would think Roger takes it no question. None of them can strike worth a damn so it would all come down to grappling ability, which all evidence shows Roger is far superior.
But he is technically a Gomes, so does he really even count in this hypothetical scenario?
His mom is Gracie so good enough for me. Could an older Gracie come in and win? Relson, Rickson, Royce, Renzo, Ralph, Crosley?
I don't think anyone would argue that Roger is too much for any of them. I would put Ryron second taking out Kron simply because of size, especially if a point system is in place. But it would be close.
I know of a world champion or two that Ryron hung with (and dare I say submitted) in training.
Kron beats Rener no problem just because Kron's training and competition experience is on another level and given no time limits, Rener just gasses.
Those guys are just too old to compete with a world champ like Roger, even if its been several years since his last comp. This is hypothetical, so we are using the scenario that these guys are goung full out, not some friendly roll.
But why Royce? Not even in his prime and on his best day would hd be able to even tie Rogers belt if they fought in the gi.
If it is gi, none of them can currently hang with Roger.
chief123 - Those guys are just too old to compete with a world champ like Roger, even if its been several years since his last comp. This is hypothetical, so we are using the scenario that these guys are goung full out, not some friendly roll.
But why Royce? Not even in his prime and on his best day would hd be able to even tie Rogers belt if they fought in the gi.
If it is gi, none of them can currently hang with Roger.
Yeah but Roger has never impressed in MMA, Royce has. According to the family the family champion in the 70's and 80's was determined by a no time limit, submission only, in the gi with open hand strikes.full out matches.
Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Roger is the best and he's bigger than most of the rest. As good as Kron is, he doesn't beat Roger. Way too much size difference.
Kron vs. Rhalan might be interesting though perhaps? Or Kron vs. Clark? I'm asking because I don't know really.
daniel, igor, rolles,... renzo still,
I always wonder how good the east coast guys at renzos are? We never hear much about them. Like igor, Gregor, rolles, and other ones I forget the names of. Are they all Roll's sons?
as far as we know roger and then Kron are the best by far. And then Clark and then I guess ryron and rener.
Not many gracies compete these days especially with roger and Kron doing mma. I know rhalan competes a little and coaches at one of Ralph's schools.
youd think they'd be trying to groom a future World champ or something. Unless mma has always been the goal? Does Carlinhos have much offspring?
chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
graciesrule -chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
..and roger actually lost to King Mo by head butt that was never called, but that's what put him down.
graciesrule -Maybe im wrong on that part about the family champs. I do seem to remember reading that all the Rorion vs Carley matches were just gi grappling.chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
Im still picking Roger to clean house against any of them.
graciesrule -chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
Royce also took off the gi and sashayed straight out and kicked him right between the post office and mailbox. He didn't want any part of Yoshida's gi game.
chief123 -graciesrule -Maybe im wrong on that part about the family champs. I do seem to remember reading that all the Rorion vs Carley matches were just gi grappling.chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
Im still picking Roger to clean house against any of them.
I agree that Roger takes it but I think both Ryron and Rener take Kron in the gi, no time limit just because of size and style.
graciesrule -chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.
Remember that Royce never won any big titles in Brazil.
Carlson told us that Royce came to his school to train as a brown belt and well...... didnt do well at all. Just wasnt at the top level where Carlson's guys were.
EazyG -graciesrule -chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.Remember that Royce never won any big titles in Brazil.
Carlson told us that Royce came to his school to train as a brown belt and well...... didnt do well at all. Just wasnt at the top level where Carlson's guys were.
It has nothing to do with it. Royce was just an "average" practitioner, not athletic, lanky awkward, etc. He is probably the lankiest in the family, limbs sticking out everywhere. See pics of him like 3 years before UFC and he looks like someone's kid brother who is the waterboy. It was a huuuge accomplishment for him since what won was his patient defensive style.
People like Royler and Rickson were way more athletic and coordinated.
Royce's BJJ is designed to deal with punches and is a defensive flavor of the art. I love Royce because what he can do, I can do. I would say his approach is more realistic to what the average person can do.
Carlson's team were pitbulls and strong muscleboys, just look at them. There is now way someone like Royce would suceed against his guys. Different animals. But that is what makes his wins great.
chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Gerard Gordeau actually had fought Vale Tudo/NHB in Japan a couple years prior. He knew what was up. Ken Shamrock was defeated by a techhnique he knew, but never trained. Do you think you could go in and beat all those guys? Think you could've handled Severn too? Stop talking the bullshit. Royce fought some TOUGH guys and beat them.
At the time, this seemed almost impossible that he would beat all these guys.
Minoki Ichihara was a Kyokushin black belt, Shamrock knew ande fought submission wrestling in many bouts, Severn was a wrestling beast, Gordeau was a badass in Kyokushin. Delucia was actively learning BJJ to beat Royce and had fougt him prior. Kimo was a monster back then. Kimo was a brawling street-thugm Keith Hackney was a stud in Kenpo circles. Patrick Smith was a tough kickboxer.These guys were not whimps. And Royce, using his families art, and good strategy beat all of them in their respective arts. I still can't believe he was able to catch Shamrock. I stood beside Sharock a long time agin, you couldn't move him.
I guess, a lot of people nowadays don't realize what martial arts were prior to the BJJ/UFC revolution. And all these bitchass blue belts would get destroyed by all these fighters.
EazyG -graciesrule -chief123 - Royce did not impress in MMA, he just beat guys who had no idea how to grapple or suprised grapplers that had no idea of submissions. He suprised Shamrock and Severn in the first matches. He looked terrible in the gi against Wallid. After seeing how easily Hughes dominated him, Roger had little problem with him.
Roger had some good submission wins in mma, and his 2 losses were against very good oponents.
They never did that to determine the family champion, i think thats all a bunch of Rorion bs. There was always one that was head and shoulders above the others, especially based on what they and others have said.
And if they did that today, all evidence shows Roger is head and shoulders above all of them. And no gi with open hand strikes is not even close to MMA, its just grappling with slaps. Thats no way to crown a family champion if your family prides itself on owning the ultimate martial art.
Yoshida was an Olympic gold medalist in Judo and Royce dominated him in the rematch. And as far as the challenge matches is absolutely true. That came from both sides of the familyCarlos & Helio) and have talked to 3 Gracie's about them, not just Rorion. Carley was 8-0 verse Rorion and Rolls was undefeated against Rickson, Carley almost beat Carlson to become family champion but Carlson was getting older. Closed fist strikes to the body was allowed but not to the face.Remember that Royce never won any big titles in Brazil.
Carlson told us that Royce came to his school to train as a brown belt and well...... didnt do well at all. Just wasnt at the top level where Carlson's guys were.
Remember Royce got his Black belt at 17, just before he left for America so he was like a 16 year old brown belt. Yeah those studs over at Carlson's probably killed him.