greek scholars?

Who here is a legit Greek scholar that can answer a question unbiasedly for me? Thanks.

I think IBI studied the classics rather thouroughly.

As in the Greek language?

I've studied ancient Greek quite extensively, and by the end of my undergraduate studies I was translating Aristophanes, Homer, Plato, the NT etc. quite handily. However, I've never been a master linguist, and my Greek is a little rusty through lack of use. These days I only use it to check translations. If I come across a passage in translation which is relevant to my research, I will look at the original Greek or Latin to make sure I'm not being misled. Eg. With one text the translator gave "brass-knuckles" as a translation, but when checking the Greek I found that the word really meant "padded training gloves" - a pretty important difference...

So, I might be able to help you out with your problem. However, there are many people out there who are more fluent than I am.

MS, when interpreting the greek words for birth, begotten, originate, create, make, produce, become etc. I'm seeing very similar words with a shared root word. Can you elaborate?

I will follow up after that. thanks!

Are you thinking of the verb 'gignomai'?

me speaky no greeky.

If you mean in Hebrew;

birth (noun) leyda

birth (verb) holid

begotten (noun) garam OR holid depending on context

begotten (verb) metzorot

originate (verb) notzar, nava, tzamach, hithava- depending on context

create (verb) yatzar, holid depending on context

make (noun) tozteret, sug, netiya, oyfa

make (verb) asa, yatzar, yitzer

produce (noun) muztar, tozar, producet, tozeret tikliot

produce (verb) yitzer, heyfiq, holid

become (verb) halam, hefch le

IBI,

I think Rooster may be talking about that verb.

Here is what one Greek Language source say about that word:

GINOMAI (Strong's Number 1096): also GIGNOMAI = to become, from GEINO or GENO = to from. To be made or fomred; to be made or created from nothing; to occur, come to pass; to be or become in general; to be done, performed; to be fulfilled, accomplisehed; of a place followed by EN or EIS, in, to be in, or at; to come to oneself, to have recovered ones sense or understanding.

This Greek Language source also says that when GINOMAI is stated or written in the Aorist form it is written EGENETO and it means "to become"

Any insight would be appreciated.

MS take a look at this verse:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

If this is written in the Greek, what is the word for "begotten" and what does it literally mean. I propose it means "birthed, produced, made, created, originated, sired" as in a normal human birth.

I understand one can beget a work of art, God can "father" the world and the same root word can be used. However, the idea is the same...it's is of production, origination, fathering, etc.

Am I correct or wrong? Thanks! P.S. just the straight forward greek stripped of theological ramifications. Thanks!

Okay, I've checked Psalm 2.7 in the Septuagint. The verb we want is a form of 'gennao' rather than gignomai, though the two words are related. 'Gennao' means 'bring forth' or 'bear'.

The exact word in that verse:

gegenneka

This form is the first person/singular/perfect*/indicative/active.

  • In some languages (eg. Latin) the perfect tense is the simple past tense (eg. I killed). In Greek, however, it is a present tense - you are now in the position of having done something in the past. Eg. I have killed. The killing took place in the past, but the important thing is that NOW - right now, this minute - I am in the position of having killed in the past. So, the perfect describes the present rather than the past.

So, the word in question simply means 'I have brought forth' or 'I have produced'. It can describe fathering in a literal sense, though it can be used to describe producing things in a more general sense, I believe.

It is yiltiach, a conjugation of yitzer; to make or to produce.

MS

So it is accurate to say that the verse says "this day" i have produced, I have brought forth a son?

What about these 2 verses:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...

...and the Word became flesh.

I'm looking for the literal interpretation of the word "Word" "with" and "became flesh".

I am not looking for the christian interpretation but the literal Greek.

IBI, what is the relationship of gennao, genes, gignomai, etc. they all seem to be conveying a very similar idea. Thanks!

So it is accurate to say that the verse says "this day" i have produced, I have brought forth a son?

Yeah.

What about these 2 verses:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God...

...and the Word became flesh.

Here's what it says in John 1.1-14:

Word = logos

Logos can have a huge range of meanings. It's a very versatile word. Here's the Liddell & Scott entry. 'Word' is certainly one of the possible meanings, though like in English 'word' has various connotations.

With = pros

Sorry to do this to you again, but pros also has a wide range of possible meanings. Here's the Liddell & Scott again. It can mean 'with' (eg. in the presence of), but it would be misleading to say "Here's what it literally means", since there are various possibilities.

Became flesh = sarx egeneto

Sarx = flesh or body

Like in English, we sometimes use pars pro toto (one bit to represent the whole) - we say 'blade' to mean 'sword', or perhaps 'flesh' to mean not just the skin/surface layers, but the entire human body. Likewise, Sarx can mean the entire body (bones and all), or just the literal flesh.

Egeneto = became

It's the third person/singular/aorist/indicative/middle of gignomai. The aorist is the simple past tense (I killed, I ate etc.). So, it means 'he/she/it became'. The 'middle' part (rather than saying 'active') is just because gignomai is a deponent verb. That's a grammatical thing. It doesn't really matter in terms of meaning.

IBI, what is the relationship of gennao, genes, gignomai, etc. they all seem to be conveying a very similar idea.

I'm not really qualified to discuss philology in any great depth, but here's my understanding:

In prehistoric Greek (ie. before the records we have), there was probably a single root-word which eventually gave birth to all the others. Language evolves like that. A few words become many words, as over the centuries people begin to use them in certain ways (I'm sure you can think of examples in English, or any other language you're familiar with).

Sorry if none of that information was as certain and categorical as you wanted. I'm afraid that with language there is often room for speculation and interpretation.

IBI,

Thanks. What you've stated is consistent with what I read in my research.

MS,

According to the Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary the greek word MONOGENES (Strong's number 5207) is related to (or I should say convey a similar idea as) the Hebrew word YACHID (Strong's number 3173) which is found in Genesis 22:2,12,16; Judges 11:43; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10; Zech 12:10. The Greek version of the OT (the Septuagint translated this word as Monogenes.

Any insight on this word would be appreciated.

yachid means only as an adj. it can also mean unique

MS

MS,

Thanks

goes back to squabbling with MG

So when we look at:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

It is fair to say that in the Greek we are talking about the Son, on a particular day being: made or formed; to be made or created from nothing?

LOL, you guys are like an old married couple.

Sheesh, Kolbe looks ahead to 2050 when rooster is gray, sagging, and wrinkled, forging on with his "final" point to mg

Rooster,

You're asking me? Look you seem content to believe what you want to believe regardless what the data may say. So what difference does it make what I think?

IBI, is there any way in TRANSLATING not interpreting, or philosophizing John 1:1 that the verse:

In the Beginning was the word...

Can be translated as:

In the beginning was another divine intellectual divine entity? Is there any example of the word "logos" being used in the Greek to mean another intellectual individual as opposed to an extension of ones reason, nature, word, plan, character.

Again, just strict translation. Thanks!

MG, I am content to let the data speak for itself, not to buy into your selective interpretations of certain verses that violate the monotheism of the bible.