Upperdog - IIRC, GSP came from a very strong striking background. Although having some wrestling experience, it was more refined and subsequently relied upon more and more throughout his MMA career to supplement his already excellent striking. Whereas others mentioned here were more rooted in wrestling and further developed their striking.
Perhaps that’s the difference? Great wrestlers falling in love with their hands, Great strikers falling in love with their grappling.
The evolution of MMA… falling back on your strengths being a form of weakness?
In camp, (Unless you’re Ben Askren) as a great grappler, if you’re facing a better striker, do you not focus more on your standup than you typically would if you were facing another wrestler? Or as a great wrestler, when facing another wrestler, would you not focus more on your standup?
GSP is a wrestling phenom. He didn’t even know it until he began relying on it to not lose after his loss to Hughes.
Incorrect about GSP only discovering his wrestling post Hughes. He was wrestling already pre-UFC (in the UCC).
There’s a fine line when it comes to subtle nuances. I said “refined”, then relied more upon, not “discovered”
He also “refined” his striking throughout his MMA career as well. The jab? Yeah, that doesnt exist in Kyokushin (where punching to the head does not exist). Freddie Roach, Phil Nurse, Thailand…and What was his main entry into his tds again? So whatever your poetics, you are not really correct.
Jones didn't use any wrestling against Santos and almost lost to a guy with a fucked up knee.
Jones’ wrestling has absolutely disappeared to his peril. His striking is not strong enough on its own. His wrestling used to be sick. Iirc he took down Bader on his first TD attempt and he used to fucking destroy opponents on the ground. Without his grappling, he is very unspectacular (yes he KO’ed DC in the rematch but looks ordinary a lot of the time when he is striking alone).
His offensive wrestling was so freaking good and it is just not what it used to be.
Why do u think Wiggs?
USADA, plus the disappearance of Jackson from Jones’ every day training life. Jackson used to give Jones three things to drill in a practice and he would drill them. I don’t think he drills like he used to.
I think Jon has fun flowing with Gibson and Wink. Drilling wrestling isn’t fun.
Just a guess. I don’t have too much insider knowledge there.
You really think USADA? I guess I have a knee jerk reaction to that term as it gets thrown around far too much in general on the UG but …something is definitely up. All that creativity and unpredictableness in the clinch and beyond is gone. With his striking, he is just getting by…there was a glimpse to his original grappling prowess in the Gustafson rematch but the OSP and Santos fights were very lackluster and he just stood with them to mediocre results.
So just looking at his record now…with the DC rematch being turned to a NC, his last finish aside from Gus was Chael in …2013 and over 9 fights.
Nearly all of his finishes used to come from the ground, whether GNP or sub or a combo of both.
How does a guy who took down Ryan F’in Bader so easily go to not attepmting one on Santos?
Jones didn't use any wrestling against Santos and almost lost to a guy with a fucked up knee.
Jones’ wrestling has absolutely disappeared to his peril. His striking is not strong enough on its own. His wrestling used to be sick. Iirc he took down Bader on his first TD attempt and he used to fucking destroy opponents on the ground. Without his grappling, he is very unspectacular (yes he KO’ed DC in the rematch but looks ordinary a lot of the time when he is striking alone).
His offensive wrestling was so freaking good and it is just not what it used to be.
Why do u think Wiggs?
USADA, plus the disappearance of Jackson from Jones’ every day training life. Jackson used to give Jones three things to drill in a practice and he would drill them. I don’t think he drills like he used to.
I think Jon has fun flowing with Gibson and Wink. Drilling wrestling isn’t fun.
Just a guess. I don’t have too much insider knowledge there.
You really think USADA? I guess I have a knee jerk reaction to that term as it gets thrown around far too much in general on the UG but …something is definitely up. All that creativity and unpredictableness in the clinch and beyond is gone. With his striking, he is just getting by…there was a glimpse to his original grappling prowess in the Gustafson rematch but the OSP and Santos fights were very lackluster and he just stood with them to mediocre results.
So just looking at his record now…with the DC rematch being turned to a NC, his last finish aside from Gus was Chael in …2013 and over 9 fights.
Nearly all of his finishes used to come from the ground, whether GNP or sub or a combo of both.
How does a guy who took down Ryan F’in Bader so easily go to not attepmting one on Santos?
I think he isn’t as strong as he used to be. He used to ragdoll guys.
I honestly think he didn’t use PEDs for the OSP and Santos fights and that explains some of the results. I also think that Jones rises to his level of competition.
If Yoel Romero used his wrestling more he would be the 185 champ
Romero is an interesting case cuz he has exhibited poor control/ground skills for his wrestling pedigree and also his style is so unmethodical, it’s more ‘out of the blue - bam.’ He did have some excellent TD set ups bs Whittaker but Whittaker’s TDD is also top notch. I wish Romero would be more methodically comprehensive with his overall game and less random’y.
He can likely TD Israel but Izzy will control the distance with striking and pick him apart for the most part.
If Yoel Romero used his wrestling more he would be the 185 champ
Romero is an interesting case cuz he has exhibited poor control/ground skills for his wrestling pedigree and also his style is so unmethodical, it’s more ‘out of the blue - bam.’ He did have some excellent TD set ups bs Whittaker but Whittaker’s TDD is also top notch. I wish Romero would be more methodically comprehensive with his overall game and less random’y.
He can likely TD Israel but Izzy will control the distance with striking and pick him apart for the most part.
It might have to do with his freestyle background. Much less riding than folkstyle. Khabib’s riding got so much better once he started working at AKA and adopted DC’s folkstyle rides.
Seems that so many top notch fighter fall in love with their hands after success in a few fights. We've seen this time and time again, and it's not down to coaching, it's down to the pure ego of the fighters.