On the contrary to modern SD and MMA systems, the TMA styles usually spend majority of their time training responses to what someone called 'habitual acts of physical violence' - wrist grabs, lapel grabs, side headlocks, bearhugs (front, rear, over, under etc.),hook punch etc.
My question is, how relevant do you think this type of training is to self defence? Instead of just sparring against someone throwing punches?
And second thing, how would you train these things in more "alive" manner?
Or to put it another way, what is the probability of someone grabbing your wrist, bearhugging you etc. against him trying to knock your head off with a punch, clinching you, headbutting, lowkicking, tackling etc.
Isn't it time to rewise the classic repertoire of 'habitual acts of physical violence'?
"contrary to modern SD and MMA systems, the TMA styles usually spend majority of their time training responses to what someone called 'habitual acts of physical violence'"
It would be great if that were the case. However, I'd guess that no more than 5-10% of the typical TMA training time is spent on this. The rest is spent on kata/forms, one-steps, solo basics etc.
It was Patrick McCarthy who coined the term 'habitual acts of physical violence" (HAPV).
To answer your first question - most TMAs practice defense to HAPVs using prearranged attacks and non-resisting partners. Thus, the training is severely limited in its effectiveness. I would put the probability of a typical 1st degree TMA black belt actually pulling off one of these defenses as very low - in a real situation. Not that they wouldn't successfully defend themselves, but that if they do it is more likely to be with their sparring moves than their kata-based self-defense moves.
The perceived problem with using sparring techniques as the basis of self defense (apart from the usual TMA lack of contact and points focus) is that you'll never practice, say, headlock escapes.
TMA'ers, while respecting or quietly fearing kickboxers and other full contact sports fighters, often highlight this supposed disadvantage. The problem is that (a) headlock escapes are not trained to the point of reflex action by TMAs anyway, and (b) they are almost never trained against a partner who is squeezing for all he is worth, punching at the same time, and generally resisting all attempts at escape.
So what happens is that a TMA'er who actually gets headlocked in a real situation finds that they can't make the escape work.
The reality therefore is that full contact sports-orientated martial artists (boxers, kickboxers, thai fighters etc) are actually likely to be more successful in a self defense situation, even though they have not trained the 'self defense' techniques.
"And second thing, how would you train these things in more "alive" manner? "
Just like any other thing is trained in an 'alive' fashion. After drilling the mechanics of, again for example, headlock escapes with your cooperating partner start ramping up the resistance level until you can escape from a 100% committed attack.
Then, you got to be able to call on these techniques in an unprearranged situation. Gear up with protective wear and get some random scenarios going - eg Tony Blauer's panic attacks.
Nice.
Hi Besouro,
‘On the contrary to modern SD and MMA systems, the TMA styles usually spend majority of their time training responses to what someone called 'habitual acts of physical violence' - wrist grabs, lapel grabs, side headlocks, bearhugs (front, rear, over, under etc.),hook punch etc.’
Nice one NowhereMan22000, in my limited karate experience this is not the case, you may see some of this at a demo or recruitment day, at the start of the beginners classes but more often or not this will succumb to straight line training (shotokan) (under the guise of power generation and delivery system), kata and sparring because; most instructors have not experienced anything else, its not approved by the organisation and/or that’s their safety area.
‘My question is, how relevant do you think this type of training is to self defence? Instead of just sparring against someone throwing punches?’
In relation to the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence which is Patrick McCarthy’s theory I’m sure he would be happy to answer any of your questions.
Its my understanding that he is not suggesting that someone will attack you with a wrist grab but that this may occur from your actions and that one should direct the confrontation to a position that one is comfortable with (a scenario that one has been in before).
e.g. haymaker comes in block/bridge etc. (whatever you wish to call it) the punch and grab the attacker by the groin he will grab your wrist to remove it from his groin, he may grab with one or two hands. There you have it a wrist grab!
Some HAPV may occur directly, I believe that there is 36 HAPV with 72 variations.
Take any technique/throw etc practice it, then work it against those attacks, what I like is that its accepted that you may fall to the ground, that something may go wrong, that when it does (in the dojo) this is where the learning curve is pushed out.
Well it’s a lot more relevant that 3 step sparring :-)
Remembering that his theory is based on the fact that one party does not want to fight.
'And second thing, how would you train these things in more "alive" manner?'
Like NowhereMan22000 suggested!
A lot of time is spent on the physical in most clubs but the same weight is not give to what happens before it goes physical; the prevention this is an area that should highlighted but that’s another thread,
MoD
'Or to put it another way, what is the probability of someone grabbing your wrist, bearhugging you etc. against him trying to knock your head off with a punch, clinching you, headbutting, lowkicking, tackling etc.
Isn't it time to rewise the classic repertoire of 'habitual acts of physical violence'? '
Hi Besouro,
I believe punch, headbutting, tackling are included in the HAPV unsure about low kicking will check it out, but then again is that used by the average street thug???
ViewType has hit the nail on the head.
A little while a back I was doing some self defence techniques. The guy had me in a headlock and I faked a strike to the nuts to soften before my escape. He kept holding on as tight as he could. At this point I decided not to hit him in the nuts but asked him if he would like to pretend he got hit in the nuts, or would he prefer me to hit him in the nuts.
Do you get the picture here? Somethings can't be practiced easily in a live manner whereas other things can. I think you have to do both and keep you mind open.
i'll just say this little bit: when i was training tma, you simply could not suprise me. if a friend was joking around & attempted to grab me or whatever, i was on him doing at least something, even if it wasn't exactly what i had done in one-step sparring & such. once i became more mma oreinted, i only thought about fighting some one squared off about 15 feet away, it never occured to me that someone might just grab me.