A training partner and his overactive ego managed to blow my ankle out with a lightning fast and hard heel hook yesterday during a "friendly roll". I'm limping and very pissed off.
I wondered what the protocol was at other academies regarding the use of heel hooks and other twisting leg and footlocks during rolling. I know they are prohibited in (most) competition.
I don't want anyone else to get injured due to carelessness, or have my fellow students visit another academy and cop a beatdown because they broke their conventions (or worse, someone's ankle).
No heelhooks. Period. Too easy, too nasty. We do allow kneebars and rotational ankle locks, but stress being careful and not cranking hard or quick. I'm currently out due to a kneebar (grade 2 MCL), but it was more of an accident and there was no 'quick crank' or malice involved (little bastard!!). I have had an incident where an ankle lock I applied went bad though, and it scared the bejeesus out of me with the sickening sound and feeling it caused, as well as the ensuing injury. Sorry Todd... ;-(
The case can definitely be made for not allowing these too, but you simply can't ignore the legs totally - otherwise you'd end up just being BJJ... ;-)
Blue belts and above can use them at Dominance. Most people don't, although I like to (as does The Rev). I never crank them on though, I just get to the position, isolate their leg and show them that I've got the heelhook and they tap.
nope no heelhooks allowed at all but some of the blue belts like pulling off other leg attacks. We see the heelhooks, acknowledge them but just keep rolling
In JJJ it is by default legal to do all submissions, but I often request no heel hooks or ankle locks if I am not comfortable / trusting of the guy I'm rolling with.
Unfortunately I learnt this the hard way, as I was rolling with a beginner and he got a hold of my ankle and cranked hard, it clicked before I escaped and later realised it was a bit gammy (and sore).
BJJ is no leg locks or neck cranks at all (I think this might just be for us white belts).
In addition I have never attempted to escape a heel hook, and have never waited for pain before tapping. With some of the other submissions I have, over time, learnt how far I can go with them, but I have never learnt this with heel-hooks because they scare me to much.
"Unfortunately I learnt this the hard way, as I was rolling with a beginner and he got a hold of my ankle and cranked hard, it clicked before I escaped and later realised it was a bit gammy (and sore). "
That sounds like what happened to me. Another guy did it to the same ankle quite a while back, but he tried it like a twisting toe hold, wrenching the foot round like a steering wheel.
Both times there was a loud pop. Less pain than I expected, but no fun all the same.
At GZ we basically avoid all lower body submissions. Occassionally a few of the experienced guys will spend a few sessions drilling them but this is definately the exception rather than rule.
Personally I avoid all lower body subs: I've had a knee reconstruction once before and its never felt quite right since. To me the risks involved with respect to lower body subs I just cannot justify their inclusion as a regular feature of my training - it's not like there isn't 101 other things I could be focusing on instead.
Whilst training in Rio this year lower body subs were basically never seen... seriously I saw all of three (?) during 40+ hours of mat time. How many fights were decided on a lower body submission at this year's Mundial?
Generally I like beginners (white belts) to stay away from all rotational leg locks (heel hooks & figure fours). Usually I prefer the guys to use the techniques they are going to use in competition (train for what you are competing in).
The difficulty arises when someone new comes along who's done some training before (particularly from overseas) and they're not familar with all the clubs protocols.
I'm going to suggest to my instructor that he set some rules for those who won't listen to reason and have to find everything out the hard way (pity the hard way means I have to get injured rather than them :-( ).
probably leg submissions only for blue and above, and drilling only for twisting leg locks.
Doing these moves on senior members who are experienced with them shouldn't be a problem. It's usually a problem when the person you're doing them on, doesn't understand (or know) what is really going on, eg on a white belt.
forget leglocks, i've now outlawed people doing subs of any kind on me in class... makes me look bad...
I of course on the other hand am allowed to go for whatever I like - leglocks (rotational or otherwise), can openers, facelocks - in addition to just generally grappling like a narky bitch.
Shooto allows heelhooks dosn't it? Amatuer?
Can someone please explain to the grossly uneducated (me) what a rotational ankle lock is? I know a heel hook but unsure on that
Thanks.
T
The two main types of ankle locks are 'straight' and 'rotational'.
'Straight' are where the foot is generally stretched/flexed out, pointed along the same line as the lower leg/shin, and the pressure is exerted onto the back of the ankle, above the heel, ie. foot is under the armpit, toes sticking out behind armpit *** and forearm tight on the back of the leg/ankle, above the heel. The actual alignment of the foot does not change throughout the submission - it always points along the same line as the shin. This is usually more of a pressure pain submission hold than a 'going to cause irreparable damage' lock.
'Rotational' is generally where instead of the foot being pointed, staying in one line and pressure being applied to the back of it, the foot itself is at right angles to the shin (like when standing) and rotated around the ankle joint (either way), until it reaches the limits of where it should be allowed to go. This is a stretching/tearing ligaments type of submission, rather than merely a pain-inducing one.
*** (for the straight ankle lock, the toes CAN be in the armpit, but that's unusual, and getting closer to heelhook. However, the main point of the heelhook is pulling the heel up and around, and not applying pressure to the back of it)
I think Spartan removed ankle locks (aka figure four ankle locks) in Spartan 6. Heel hooks were always illegal in Spartan. But I thought XFC allowed them all.
However, I am too lazy to go the sites and read the rules.
super brawl in hawaii allowed heel hooks and the dudes from the shark used them all the time. many competitors left with long lasting and permanent knee injuries.
as for rotational this or that i think any lock should be ok as long as it doesn't attack the knee joint......XFC doesn't allow rotational attacks to the knee, nor does any one else in Australia as far as i know. the fighting pool in aust is young and very small and would be f'ing stupid for a promoter to include techniques that very easily stop poeple training/ fighting for along time or even permantly.