Hello Scott

Scott, I just noticed you posted for me on the Canada Q&A, but somehow your actual message doesn't show up - I just get a bunch of posts from Sothy.

*Bugs bunny voice*
Vas est Oppenheimer, herr Doktor?

Okay, went back to the original board.

"John, considering you're a resident authority on Sokoli Stalina, you're invited to the PERFORMANCE Q&A for a discussion on RMA styles."

Wow! that's flattering.

I'll be happy to contribute in any way I can.

One thing I should mention is that it might be a misnomer to call Mikhail & Vlad's stuff 'Sokoli Stalina' - only because neither of them were in that unit, (Stsalin was a bit before their time) Mikhail was taught by one of them.

cool, check the 'view saved thrds' to see the thread...

John, that makes a sense. Thanks for the clarification. Do Vladimir or Mikhail use a particular name when teaching, or just "Systema" like A. Kadochnikov?

Please see the archives on RMA compare/contrast. I'm not sure how to resurrect the thread.

Also, are you aware of a military hand to hand combat book by Ron Shillingford? There is supposedly an article in there regarding RMA that was composed from two articles of mine, one on the System, the other on Sambo. I can't remember who told me you made a post here (or maybe Vlad's board) regarding it. Is it true?

Fraternal,

Scott

T3

ScottJust 'systema'.Also, are you aware of a military hand to hand combat book by Ron Shillingford?I've got two of his books - one's just a survey of the different Special Forces in general, and the other is a survey of H2H. Being somewhat interested in spetsnaz I got the first one when it came out, as books on spetsnaz are scarce in these parts, and got the 2nd (the H2H one) as soon as I could.I transcribed an excerpt from the book, in which he devotes a page to the history of Soviet H2H.I'll post the url for the thread, as we had some military types make some interesting comments...But first, the article:from The Elite Forces Handbook of Unarmed Combat by Ron Shillingford Russian Military Martial Arts (page 21) : Quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The history of Russian/Soviet military martial arts is as fascinating as it is complex. Prior to the October Revolution of 1917, Russia had a multitude of regional and ethnic martial arts which are today collectively known as Russian Martial Art (RMA). From several millennia before the birth of Christ to roughly 6th century AD, RMA was a varied tribal practice amongst Slavic warrior communities, used in both internal and inter-tribe competitions and also in the reality of tribal warfare. The combat skills were passed from father to son, martial hereditary maintaining and also developing the corpus of techniques over the centuries. This was to be valuable, for from the 6th century AD, Russian tribes came more under attack form northern and western invaders, though the invader's first hand accounts of this time indicate that their opponents were ferocious hand-to-hand fighters. From the 9th century, however, metallurgical advances were starting to affect the course of RMA development. Improved swords, spears and Armour led to the need for more decisive hand-to-hand techniques which could be used to tackle even armed opponents. Another, perhaps more profound influence on RMS, was the Mongol occupation of Russia initiated by Batu Khan in 1237, an occupation which remained until the 15th century. Two centuries after the Mongol occupation, RNA went into something of a decline. The influence of less sophisticated martial traditions form the West and the eventual introduction of firearms meant a steady degrading of RMA authority and kills, though it remained as a persistent cultural presence throughout Russia into the twentieth century. cont'd...

The revolution of 1917 signaled a major shift in the fortunes and direction of RMA in Russia. Following the establishment of the Bolshevik government, the communist regime set out to iron flat the Soviet Union's variegated cultural traditions and create a homogenous socialist landscape. RMA was no exception to this policy, and in 1918 Lenin founded an organization under one Comrade Vorosilov to research Russian and foreign martial arts systems and create an integrated military combat form standardized throughout the USSR. Teams of investigators traveled throughout the Soviet Union, Mongolia, China, India, Japan, Africa and Europe and built up a massive profile of martial techniques and traditions. Once this was pooled back at Vorosilov's HQ, 25 Russian unarmed combat styles were brought together with karate, judo, and other defensive forms into a tiered structure of martial art skills to be taught to the military. The top tier was occupied by the Soviet Close Quarters Combat (CQC) programme. Taught only to Special Forces soldiers and Secret Police units, CQC was a highly secret selection of lethal unarmed techniques for assassination, combat killing and torture, techniques which kept close to the original teachings of RMA despite the Soviet attempts to deny this. Emphasis was placed on techniques such as strangulation and fatal strikes, these being thoroughly tested in the Russo-Japanese War and World War I. Below CQC was Soviet Police Subject and Crowd Control Tactics (CCT). CCT provided good restraint skills using locks, pressure point holds and compliance-generating kicks and strikes. Lastly, there was a general level of martial art instruction to be given to all Soviet army units, which was actually more geared to competitive sporting use than rigorous unarmed combat skills. Thus the Soviet authorities assimilated RMA into their ideological structure while also preventing the total dissemination of lethal unarmed knowledge. The new forms were collectively gathered into a combat style known as Sambo, an acronym standing for Samozashcitya Bez Oruzhiya, meaning self-protection without weapons. Sambo generally fell into two categories: Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo, and almost all Russian military personnel would encounter its techniques in one form or another, though often without the lethality of training that Special Forces soldiers received. For there was another form of Sambo known as Combat Sambo Spetsnaz. This is essentially the repository of genuine RMA techniques, the Sambo reference in its title being meant to placate outside curiosity. Its techniques were taught in absolute secrecy, and it was often known simply as The System by those who practiced it. It is now the province if Russia's elite Spetsnaz special forces units and of key personnel in Russian institutions such as the Ministry of Internal Affairs, Ministry of Defense, MVD special units, VDV Paratrooper and OMON units, certain Russian Marine squads and other specialists. Slowly, the techniques of Combat Sambo Spetsnaz are becoming known t the outside world. Yet while here are many in the West who claim themselves to be Sambo instructors, some being former Soviet army personnel, few outside Russia actually have knowledge of the full scope, potential and techniques of Sambo as derived from the ancient RMA. here's the thread url:http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=233&forum=3

John, do you think on www.amerross.com/links.html the references to Mikhail and Vladimir need to be changed then, not referring to Sokoli Stalina as their "style?"

I'm going to be in the US NE this Summer. I'm going to be calling Vladimir to see if he's okay with me coming to visit his school. That should clamp a bunch of online chicanery. Look forward to meeting you.

Secondly, thanks for reposting the article. It's definitely a compilation of two of my articles (http://www.amerross.com/history.html and http://www.budo-fitness.se/budofitness/galleries/sambo.html). Can you tell me please if my name is referenced for the article?

Frat.,

s

If you see the url there seems to be a bit of a contraversy over what rupokshni boi means. I since checked with Vlad and others, and basically it means H2H in general. Anything can be Rupokashni Boi. Different units have different versions.

'John, do you think on www.amerross.com/links.html the references to Mikhail and Vladimir need to be changed then, not referring to Sokoli Stalina as their "style?" '

I don't feel comfortable making those decisions, just because I'm not running Vlad's business and am not in his employ, but you could e-mail Vlad

"I'm going to be in the US NE this Summer. I'm going to be calling Vladimir to see if he's okay with me coming to visit his school. That should clamp a bunch of online chicanery. Look forward to meeting you. "

Great! My friend Demetrey says you will be his personal guest, he'll put you up in a hotel room, and you can train at Vlad's and his place together for a week. I look forward to training with you.

"Secondly, thanks for reposting the article. It's definitely a compilation of two of my articles (http://www.amerross.com/history.html and http://www.budo-fitness.se/budofitness/galleries/sambo.html). Can you tell me please if my name is referenced for the article? "

I don't remember seeing your name in the book, no. You might want to contact the publisher.

John,

Please thank your friend Demetrey, but my family and I will be staying with friends and will only be coming for a SUN-MON, followed by another obligation in Rhode Island TUE.

Sounds like a good time. I'll give him a ring, and see you at Casa de Vlad.

frat.,

s

that's really cool! I always thought there was some disagreement or "bad blood" between you two. But i think it will be an awesome experience for any of the students attending when you're both there teaching and if they're lucky, sparring. way to go scott.

Because of the positive lifestyle changes it can make, including survivability and longevity, people take martial art training too seriously. Often this results in martial art becoming drama. Drama queens love gossip, contraversy and conspiracy-theorizing.

Ultimately, it's all good. There are many paths to the same goal, and many modes of traveling.

Even in Australia we have ROSS devotees, and I know a guy who trained with Mr Vasiliev in Canada for some time.

It's great to see that two high profile practitioners from a similar MA background can cooperate like this. It's all too rare in many other MA styles.