With the IBJJF changing the standards this can no longer happen so basically everything after Black belt is just honorary. I do know if this is bad or good since the first 5 degrees were originally accomplishment/merit based mostly by competition like in Judo.some of the highest promotions in the old days: Carley 7th degree at 22, Rickson 7 th degree at 30, Reylson 8 th degree at 38 and Carlos Antonio Rosado 9 th degree Red belt at 40.
Geez...Foca just got his coral after being a black belt for 30 years. Not training 30 years, a black belt for 30 years. Â
This is a good thing. If it wasn’t purely time in grade it would devolve into a shitshow of politics, favours, and one-upping
SpeedKing9 - This is a good thing. If it wasn't purely time in grade it would devolve into a shitshow of politics, favours, and one-upping
So Rickson who could beat everyone should have been promoted at the same speed as some twice a week recreational black belt? The old way was based upon competition and teaching ability up till 7 th degree. You could also get your Coral as 20 years teaching as black belt and 40 years as a black belt you get Red belt. The Carlos Sr and Helio way.
I got my BB in 2012. Thanks to some injuries and other life changes, I went a few years with only intermittent training. Even now I only train casually. I don't deserve a promotion anytime soon. I'd rather have a performance standard, and train for it when I'm ready.Â
Principal Andy -twinkletoesCT -I got my BB in 2012. Thanks to some injuries and other life changes, I went a few years with only intermittent training. Even now I only train casually. I don't deserve a promotion anytime soon. I'd rather have a performance standard, and train for it when I'm ready.
The time served model should assume an active practitioner/instructor, not one who is training here and there. That being said, a performance standard would be nice, but people are often at peak performance in their younger years. Would you take degrees away when they lose performance? I heard Judo has a model that uses both, but I know nothing about their ranking system. Personally, I don’t care much about black belt degrees for myself. I do however respect what they represent when I see them on others.
I wouldn't take away degrees for lost performance any more than I'd take away someone's purple belt for time off and rust.
The idea that performance is at a youthful peak implies athletic performance, I think. I'm looking more for technical growth standards, and I think you can represent those quite well when youthful attributes have declined (really it's just a matter of having the physical attributes needed to train regularly).
I've said elsewhere I like Boxe Francaise Savates's rank system - once you are eligible for competition and instructors ranks, you can either go through competition promotions or technical promotions, but whichever path you take to Silver Glove, the expectations are the same when you get there.
Principal Andy -Degrees are for time served as a BB in BJJ, if an instructor follows IBJJF guidelines. When you look at all of the benefits and drawbacks of this, it probably makes the most sense.
I agree. It’s not “perfect” but --realistically-- it’s probably about as fair across the spectrum of practitioners as you’re going to get.
Stripes after BB are just time markers.
People shouldn’t be overly concerned with them.
I did TMAs for a pretty long time before BJJ. Styles that don’t have a competitive aspect to them as BJJ does spend SO MUCH TIME & ENERGY on promotions, talking about promotions, complaining about who deserves what, etc.
There is SO much f@ckery with ranks to the point where they often mean nothing.
I remember seeing my 8th dan instructor get promoted by a board of his own students to 10th dan so he could have the power in turn to promote them to higher ranks. -ALL of which was accepted by the governing bodies for that art.
Promotions become tactical so that “your guys” can claim to be the highest ranking guy in that area or outrank the rival instructor on the other side of town.
That is is why every other person in the TMAs is a “Master”, “Grandmaster”, “Soke”, “Dai Shihan”, etc.
It’s over the top rank inflation based on ego, jealousy, & ass kissing.
It you have spent some time in TMAs you probably have your own stories about this. AT LEAST in BJJ if a black belt has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc stripes it means they have at least been in the art that long. Doesn’t mean anything else. It’s like getting 10, 20, 30 year plaque from your employer. It just recognizes that you have been there for a while. Nothing else.
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People love to bitch about it but IBJJF is one of the best things to happen to BJJ in its history. We should all be grateful to have a well-organized entity that puts on incredible tournaments and has a consistent and fair grading system. For the most part, especially considering how large they are, they're very unbiased.Â
shen - I did TMAs for a pretty long time before BJJ. Styles that don't have a competitive aspect to them as BJJ does spend SO MUCH TIME & ENERGY on promotions, talking about promotions, complaining about who deserves what, etc.There is SO much f@ckery with ranks to the point where they often mean nothing.
I remember seeing my 8th dan instructor get promoted by a board of his own students to 10th dan so he could have the power in turn to promote them to higher ranks. -ALL of which was accepted by the governing bodies for that art.
Promotions become tactical so that “your guys” can claim to be the highest ranking guy in that area or outrank the rival instructor on the other side of town.
That is is why every other person in the TMAs is a “Master”, “Grandmaster”, “Soke”, “Dai Shihan”, etc.
It’s over the top rank inflation based on ego, jealousy, & ass kissing.
It you have spent some time in TMAs you probably have your own stories about this. AT LEAST in BJJ if a black belt has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc stripes it means they have at least been in the art that long. Doesn’t mean anything else. It’s like getting 10, 20, 30 year plaque from your employer. It just recognizes that you have been there for a while. Nothing else.
I think the time stamp on BB degrees has its advantages and disadvantages. Roger was brought up in the time stamp degrees and I kept thinking at the time with the way he was winning if Helio and Carlos were around him he would of been 7 th degree by 30. I can remember when Rickson was a degree higher than Rorion and 2 degrees above Relson even though he was 7/6 years younger. I didn’t like how Helio jumped Ryron and Rener up to 4 th and 5 th in a few years after Black based on just teaching credentials, he changed about that with the Valente’s too. Personally I liked in Judo how originally if you were top in competition you were 6/7 th Dan then they lowered it a bit to 5 th Dan.
Simple, black belt degrees should work just like coloured belt promotions, done at the discretion of higher ranks after a minimum time has passed since last promotion.Â
Giving degrees based on time served turns them into participation awards but at least it gets rid of the other fuckery involved with promotions. Probably better if we got rid of them altogether I'd say.Â
The Mad Lurker -Giving degrees based on time served turns them into participation awards but at least it gets rid of the other fuckery involved with promotions. Probably better if we got rid of them altogether I'd say.
A “participation award” given to someone who has more than likely been training full time for 15yrs (estimated 10yrs+/- to reach black belt and a few years as a black belt) is hardly an unearned participation award. It’s like giving someone a gold watch after 25yrs with a company. Acknowledgment of commitment and contribution. Purely ceremonial and very meaningful for some. Nothing more
shen - I did TMAs for a pretty long time before BJJ. that don't have a competitive aspect to them as BJJ does spend SO MUCH TIME & ENERGY on promotions, talking about promotions, complaining about who deserves what, etc.There is SO much f@ckery with ranks to the point where they often mean nothing.
I remember seeing my 8th dan instructor get promoted by a board of his own students to 10th dan so he could have the power in turn to promote them to higher ranks. -ALL of which was accepted by the governing bodies for that art.
Promotions become tactical so that "your guys" can claim to be the highest ranking guy in that area or outrank the rival instructor on the other side of town.
That is is why every other person in the TMAs is a "Master", "Grandmaster", "Soke", "Dai Shihan", etc.
It’s over the top rank inflation based on ego, jealousy, & ass kissing.
It you have spent some time in TMAs you probably have your own stories about this. AT LEAST in BJJ if a black belt has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc stripes it means they have at least been in the art that long. Doesn’t mean anything else. It’s like getting 10, 20, 30 year plaque from your employer. It just recognizes that you have been there for a while. Nothing else.
Why you should never give dorks power. They’ll drag you down into their dorkdom and next thing you know they’re making you call them “Seafood” Larry after awarding them their 53rd degree after a stick breaking demo in a ballroom at the Marriott.
Pass
Am I the only one not understanding the first post? What's changed? Â
deepu -Am I the only one not understanding the first post? What's changed?
Before IBJJF established minimum time requirements for degrees on black belt, teachers could promote someone to the next dan based on their own criteria. Like Helio and Carlson used to do. Nowadays, many of Carlson’s black belts follow IBJJF time requirements, but I’ve always wondered if Carlson would have followed that system if he were still alive. I’m guessing probably not. I can’t see him allowing his younger brother to dictate how he promotes.
Aaron Lapointe -deepu -Am I the only one not understanding the first post? What's changed?
Before IBJJF established minimum time requirements for degrees on black belt, teachers could promote someone to the next dan based on their own criteria. Like Helio and Carlson used to do. Nowadays, many of Carlson’s black belts follow IBJJF time requirements, but I’ve always wondered if Carlson would have followed that system if he were still alive. I’m guessing probably not. I can’t see him allowing his younger brother to dictate how he promotes.
Ah ok ... the minimum time requirements thing has been around for a while though right ... at least a few years.
As for Carlson, porra, I wouldn't even have mentioned stripes to him at the risk of getting laughed at.
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deepu -Aaron Lapointe -deepu -Am I the only one not understanding the first post? What's changed?
Before IBJJF established minimum time requirements for degrees on black belt, teachers could promote someone to the next dan based on their own criteria. Like Helio and Carlson used to do. Nowadays, many of Carlson’s black belts follow IBJJF time requirements, but I’ve always wondered if Carlson would have followed that system if he were still alive. I’m guessing probably not. I can’t see him allowing his younger brother to dictate how he promotes.
Ah ok ... the minimum time requirements thing has been around for a while though right ... at least a few years.
As for Carlson, porra, I wouldn't even have mentioned stripes to him at the risk of getting laughed at.
Yeah, the IBJJF time requirements have been around for at least 10 years. It’s possible they were even around before Carlson passed in 2006 but if so he did not follow them.