Honest opinion wanted

Underground BJJ Ground
1

This is not troll, though it might sound like one:

Part I: I've been out 2 months with a pretty serious injury, and am just coming back to rolling, but I have to go light. Everybody who was at the academy last night knows this.

Part II: There is a guy about my same height & strength, similar level (both white belts) - more advanced than me in takedowns (he is brown in judo, I think), but positionally we probably would end up spending about the same amount of time on top/bottom, and I think if I go 100% we will split taps about equally - but I think he is afraid of me because all the white belts who are smaller than us think I'm strong, and I submit most of them. There are a few reasons I think he is afraid of me - meaning a few symptoms of it - but now he seems to have gained some confidence, and seems more open to rolling with me. As far as I know, I have never injured any of the weaker/lesser white belts, in part because any time I get a sub I apply pressure very slowly because I am worried about hurting somebody.

Part III: now that I'm coming back, and he's willing to roll with me, I'm finding that even when I explain that I am only going light, this other guy uses full power whenever he gains anything positionwise, or if he gets any form of crank or sub. He hasn't gotten anything on me in the past, because previously when he cranked up his strength I could answer back and stymie it. Now, though, because I am going slow and light, he is tending to get better positions and more situations where he can apply some kind of crank, or a choke that isn't quite put on correctly.

Part IV: last night, he got kind of a head and arm lock from the sprawl position (he was on top, I was on knees and elbows), and when he dove through to try for side mount he came up and immediately started cranking with all his strength, spraining my neck; I know he thought he had a choke, but it wasn't on right so it was just a crank, and he pressured it hard and immediately, with no gradualness to the pressure. I thought about saying something, but he seemed to be kind of proud of himself, and I felt that if I said anything it wouldn't have gotten through, or that he would just take more satisfaction from it (so that I would be basically giving him positive reinforcement, rather than having a corrective effect).

My question: right now, I am kind of pissed, because I will be missing more training now, after having to wait 2 months to come back, and I am feeling like I want to teach him a lesson, next time, by putting my strength on him in the way he did it to me.

Honestly, I am looking for advice on how to deal with this so that the best possible outcome (a better learning situation) is the result.

Would appreciate input from others, especially instructors.

[ed for clarity]

2

Come on guys: let me ask it another way: what would you do (honestly), if anything?

3

It sounds like he may have no clue about going slow. That is something that takes time to learn. Is he really taking advantage of the situation? Maybe, maybe not. I can see why you're upset, but I can also see that it may not be intentional. One suggestion I will make is this: Do not roll with this guy if he has problems with his control. Right now you are healing and need to do so while avoiding further injury. Roll with some of the higher belts who have better control and will be able to teach you along the way. If this guy wants to roll again just tell him, politely, that the last time he was going harder than you wanted to and you need to take it easy until you do heal. Tell him you will roll with him again when you are 100%. By taking this road you A) Avoid a pissing contest, B) get a chance to heal better, and C) will learn a lot by working with the higher belts. When you and this guy do roll again your game will be vastly improved.

If you don't mind my asking, what was your initial injury?

4

Good advice, ANC. I guess I just needed to hear somebody else say it, because I'm too bugged over my neck being a new problem to be 100% reasonable.

I know what you suggest is the right answer.

I am getting over a broken rib. The rib is OK, but there is still some kind of very weird stuff going on around the backside of the rib. The break was in front, but there may or may not have been additional damage in the rear (which does not show up on the xrays I had taken).

Rib break was from being dumped awkwardly on my back by somebody taller, and probably my not breaking my fall well enough. Probably was exacerbated by sparring, and then possibly even by a chiro who adjusted me without xraying first. Walked around with broken rib a week (waking up screaming in the middle of the night several nights, lol) before going to ER and discovering a clean break.

5

Don't roll w/ people who don't have a volume control. Set your boundaries or people will abuse them.

6

When I am healthy if someone wants to go hard, I give it right back, they crank my arm, I pop their ankle, and so on, its less like training, and more like a fight or competition, they made it that way by trying to kill you on the mat. If I am not healthy, I won't roll with those people, I don't want a fight or competition. If they ask why you won't roll, just tell them that they have more power then sense and you don't want a reinjury.

7

Thanks for the further input. Probably you all cut off a potentially bad situation, either me injuring him or injuring/getting-injured again myself.

I was pretty peeved off all day today.

The right solution is def to heal and just avoid that one person, for now. I think he will probably take it as positive reinforcement, but that's life I guess.

8

Dude, that sucks! I haven't experienced it personally, but a couple of guys I train with have broken or seperated their ribs while rolling. I have seen it and hope I never end up there. Take it easy, and get well soon.

That guy probably will take it as positive reinforcement, but so what. He thinks you're scared of him, but when you heal (and improve your game by working with the higher belts), you will roll with him and he will see how wrong he was. Be patient.

9

I see your side jah but also as a responsibile grappler you should know when to tap.

If he has a neck crank on wether knowing it or not or assuming its a choke you should be the one to stop and think "hey this could mess my neck up, maybe I should put my ego aside for a minute, tap, and then discuss with him that he had a neck crank on and not a choke.

It's just TRAINING with your TRAINING partners.

Granted he should respect the fact the you are injured and would like to roll lightly and right, if he doesnt understand that dont roll with him.

But ultimately I dont think you should get mad at him for injuring your neck, thats why we have the option of tapping out.

10

Thanks, ANC.

Maku, I did tap. I didn't have time to tap without getting hurt, tho, because of the way he put it on, i.e. full agro strength, because he thought he had something. I don't think he was even sure what he had, just something like, "This feels like a sub, let me put it on as hard as I can & as fast as I can."

11

I can put it another way, Maku.

There was nothing there, in terms of a sub. Then, because he thought there was, he pressured it hard and suddenly.

12

I think maku said it best.

You have to talk to this guy. Tell him he's getting cranks, not chokes, that you're recovering from injury and getting hurt and that if you both go a bit slower you'll let him get some controlled, well-executed chokes on SLOWLY, and then tap. Do this for a while until he gets the hang of it ... but if he doesn't, just tell him you get hurt every time you roll with him and you would prefer not to get hurt. There seems to be at least one guy in every gym that has this attitude, unfortunately. There's a fairly limited number of people at my gym who are into BJJ as much as me, and unfortunately one of them is hypercompetitive and ego driven as well. There are people like that in all aspects of life and you have to find a way to deal with them. Do this guy a favour or something. Befriend him, the relationship might become less competitive and more cooperative - MIGht.

I generally find it's best to try and get personality issues out in the open rather then let them fester unspoken.

13

time for the higher ranks to stretch the idiot. In my judo and bjj class, guys who act like that get to work exclusively with the upper ranks, who then in turn SQUASH them. That type of behavior should not be tolerated, he should know better and if he doesn't it needs to be beaten into him.

14

"There was nothing there, in terms of a sub. Then, because he thought there was, he pressured it hard and suddenly"

Neck cranks are a form of submission. I think the fact that you are walking around with a sore neck is evidence that there was in fact a sub there.

Swollow your pride and tap. There is no place for Ego's in bjj.

I would put big money that when you said "lets roll light" you didn't taking a passive position and were unwilling to let the other guy tap you. The opponent stepped it up so he can do something and then you starts defending harder. The opponent had to step it up more to advance. You bring your defence up a little because you don't want him to tap you. Forcing him to go even harder to get the sub.

Next time if you say "go light" give up the first tap with minimal resistance. I bet after that he will tone it down.

15

I don't believe there is a white belt who knows how to truely roll light. Not trying to be insulting. I don't believe they know enough and it is tough to lose the "train like it counts for something" mentality. After getting tapped a thousand times, I realized it doesn't even matter. I will roll 4 times a week, 2 days with whoever is around and as hard or light as they want. The other 2 are light and drilling and none of my training partners on those days have a white belt. You should just forget that dude for now. Let your injury completly heal and roll with higher belts and learn well rolling. Rib injuries kill, good luck.

16

"You have to talk to this guy. Tell him he's getting cranks, not chokes, that you're recovering from injury and getting hurt and that if you both go a bit slower you'll let him get some controlled, well-executed chokes on SLOWLY, and then tap. Do this for a while until he gets the hang of it ... but if he doesn't, just tell him you get hurt every time you roll with him and you would prefer not to get hurt."

I agree that advice sounds right, but I don't think I'm in a position to be the one to advise or correct him, here. I think my teacher/instructor is already aware of the issue - I am 100% sure that he is aware that this student tends to try and substitute force for technique, habitually - so maybe I will just say something polite and not insulting about other guy when I have a chance.

If I say something to the guy, because (I think I am right in perceiving this) he feels competitive & possibly threatened by me, I think I would only offend him and come of as inappropriately condescending and presumptuous; also, I think it would only register to him as positive reinforcement of the behavior, if I state to him that anything he does when we roll bothers me or is problematic for me.

"There seems to be at least one guy in every gym that has this attitude, unfortunately. There's a fairly limited number of people at my gym who are into BJJ as much as me, and unfortunately one of them is hypercompetitive and ego driven as well. There are people like that in all aspects of life and you have to find a way to deal with them. Do this guy a favour or something. Befriend him, the relationship might become less competitive and more cooperative - MIGht."

That's valuable advice, to me, meaning the advisement to work on changing the dynamic that already exists between this guy and myself, however unstated or sublimated it may be. FWIW, this guy is not a typical meathead at all. He is an older guy that I think is not at all habitually aggressive and he is not at all fundamentally an asshole off the mat. I think he loves/admires the instructor, and is used to being a top student from his judo and Japanese JJ background, and that this has something to do with the dynamic between the guy and myself.

My perception's that this guy views me as a threat, somewhat personally/physically but more in terms of hierarchically - some of our dynamic is probably grounded in that (this is my "read"). In that sense, what you say in terms of addressing the dynamic between us is definitely on the mark. It's something I can do, to try and address that, but I have some doubts as to whether this guy can be taught to roll light until he reaches a higher belt level, because he is trying to prove himself to his hero (the instructor) and get to the next belt level; also, I think his place among the other students, in their minds, is probably an issue for him. At least that is my perception. I realize (and I think some of the responses above support this) that people will tend to think I am self-projecting when I write these things, but I am not concerned at all about my place in the class hierarchy, and I am not concerned about being over or under anybody within it. I also do not have any problem with tapping to anybody, but I do resent it when other people attack as though getting a tap were the only thing that mattered (where, in a way, they would be almost as pleased if biting were a legal/valid technique, and they got the tap by biting you). I don't attack anybody else in that spirit, and I think it's just wrong, so it irritates - well, angers - me when somebody else greets me with it.

AusBJJ, I will just answer this bit from you, because it seems to encapsulate your goal in posting:

'I would put big money that when you said "lets roll light" you didn't taking a passive position and were unwilling to let the other guy tap you.'

You would be betting the wrong side. The only reason he got the position deeply enough to cause an injury was that I was playing very light, and very passive. Actually, if I had used my own strength and had been working in that mode (of more intense resistance), he probably would not have been able to cause the injury in the first place, because he would not have been able to get his arms cinched tightly. I could have stopped the nekk injury with arm/shoulder/back strength, probably, but that might have caused problems related to the preexisting rib injury.

I have a good idea of how to roll light, and keep myself in check, because the person that got me started is training partner to a pro fighter, so he often has injuries that I have to consider, even as his student & as a novice. Plus, he is my best buddy, so we are always rolling in a mutually cooperative way.

FWIW, I have no problem tapping to people. I don't get tapped much because I got started with a purple belt, rolling one-on-one, and I know most of the basic escapes for the core 5 subs. I also know how to relax and not try and force escapes or subs from rolling with my purple belt friend.

Before and after rolling with this other guy, for example, I tapped to somebody going for knee-on-stomach, to the same guy when he got rear mount, etc. - not subs but just positions that were threatening in terms of my preexisting injury (healing broken rib).

Similarly, I wasn't holding posture with anything approaching full resistance from top position, so I was allowing people to get head and arm control much more easily, and this was allowing me to get reversed and into bad positions very easily.

Although I'm a white belt, the only people that tap me with conventional arm bars or triangles, for example, now, are blues and higher. It's not because I am unwilling to tap to the whites; it's because their technique isn't tight enough to prevent the escape. I think I may have mentioned either on this thread or elsewhere that I don't get tapped much, and maybe that is why you (Aus) are presuming I have a problem with tapping. I don't. I have a problem with people not rolling in a cooperative spirit, though. I always do try to roll in a spirit of cooperation & consideration, so it really pisses me off when others don't - unless they are really much more skilled, because then the sacrifice is worth the educational experience.

17

like I said Jah, let the upper ranks know. We've had guys come who have acted in the same manner, they are they routinely squashed once the upper ranks learn of this type of behavior. It isn't cool, and since he wants to be so competitive let him get it beaten out of him by the upper ranks. You'd be surprised how humble it can make alot of people.

18

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19

Atama-Kimonos,

Thats a great point...I hadn't thought of that!

20

jah...I would stick to rolling with those who are blue belt and
above..thus you will improve by rolling with those who "get it" and
know how to roll safely.

Theres a saying in jiu-jitsu..

"No one can hurt you worse than a white belt".