you: well the lamb reference can be alot deepr meaning that that my friend, youyr jump from lamb of god to him being sacrificed for our sins seems a leap of extreme logic. But lets examine it anyways...
me: deeper meaning?!?! Like what?!!? A leap of logic? Have you ever studied the Old Testament oblations beginning in Genesis and codified under the Mosaic law?!!?!? have you ever studied passover or the sacrifices of David and Solomon?!?!
you: He died for our sins did he? do you have sins? do I? of course, so if we still have them and vefore jesus we still have them, what exactly did he die for then? Nothing changed?
me: nothing's changed for you because you haven't applied the gospel. My sins have been buried in a sea of forgetfulness. I have no record of sins. The judgement for my sins were paid by the man Christ Jesus who bore the wrath for my sinfulness.
you: But we are now able to be saved ? hmm but weren't we able to be saved before?
me: sure but the OT saints were saved looking FORWARD TO MESSIAH. So for instance, you can see that noah participated in a baptism and "new birth" as the old world was buried in water (a type of the blood) and was "born anew". Abraham believed in 1 God, and in the resurrection! He believed God's promises and knew if he slew isaac, God would raise the SON OF PROMISE FROM THE DEAD.
you: ...do you not accept the OT as part of your religion?
me: of course...
you: are you saying not a single jew was ever brought back to god? I hope not.
me: of course not. My saviour was Jewish.
you: You know the absolution of sins was visited before there was a jesus, its a common theme in religion the death as atonement or payment and rebirth after. The whole lamb reference predates christianity.
me: in the OT, sins were not "absolved" they were "stayed" for a year until the nation again sacrificed for "relief" until the next year of atonement. The idea behind oblations was a say of judgement but there was not a final sacrifice that would resolve sin.
Jesus was the final sin offering, the final atonement. The whole "lamb reference" predates Christianity because Judaism predates Christianity and Noah predated Abraham and Moses (he sacrificed right after they landed on Mt. Ararat) and Adam and Eve predated Noah (God did not approve of their man made efforts to cover their shame-fig leaves) He slew animals, and provided their skins as a covering. Thus death is the only judgement for sin.
you: Well anyways , the problem is that when you guys say he died for our sins you cannot quanitfy it at all?
me: quantify it? It was quantified on the cross.
you: If there is an afterlife we had it before jesus. Human spiritual history is full of afterlife stuff, its the whole purpose of religion.
me: what does any of this have to do with your inability to do proper exegesis or your condemnation of those who do?
you: Worse yet you cannot adequately explain why the ruler and creator of the universe had to sacrifice his own son literally to save us when he could have presumably waved his hand for the same effect?
me: The judgement for sin is death. God is Holy and sin cannot be allowed. When God made man and he had CHOICE and sinned, he deserved death. God provided an "out". Death and judgement would fall on a substitute so that man would not have to die eternally. It started with animals (innocent) which illustrated that sin has a cost. It hurts, it brings death. But an animal cannot die for men. man has to die for man. Ooops, dilemna, man cannot die for anothers sins because he is a sinner. What about God? God cannot die. He's immortal and He's a Spirit.
What if God came in flesh. Then He could die as a man, shed His blood and it would be sinless. God robed Himself in flesh and died for you and me. Dilemna resolved.
God is desiring fellowship eternally with those who want to live with Him. No waving of a magical hand. Rather, the price has been paid and those who choose Him, can have the judgement for their sins absolved. Those who don't choose to not live with Him, now or in the future.
you: Modern christian are obsessed with the notions of being saved by some other device but thier own behaviour.
me; LOL, man cannot save himself. Can you stop sinning? of course not. 1 transgression against the holiness of God requires judgement by a Holy God. You have been weighed in the scales and are found wanting. That's your arrogance and downfall...man saving himself.
you: There is no magic button or group to join to acheieve the act of being saved. We are saved when we walk in the kingdom of god.
me: Again, where are you getting this stuff? I don't have to interpret anything. I read in acts 2:38 that if I'm baptized in the name of Jesus Christ my sins are remitted...gone...forgiven. Not that tough. Not like asking to walk in glass, do some sort of mecca but you'll excuse it away instead of doing it.
you: See Thomas for what that is beacause i think fundies and non fundies will never agree on what that is, why because its an issue of symoblic or literal interpretation and its is pure human opinion one way or another.
me: no it's not and I'm sorry that you haven't read the word of God enough, or sought God enough to receive His truth.