The closest I've been to really having an opportunity to train in sambo is that I trained at a very good judo school that got a lot of high level international players and one of the Bulgarian guys explained to me that in places like Russia/Soviet Union, training could be fairly informal sometimes and people from all three arts would often train together, particularly the judo and sambo guys. In sport, this led to a paradigm shift of sorts in Judo as Soviet players became a force to be reckoned with in Olympic judo because they were countering the traditional bolt upright standup of "Japanese judo" with a bunch of different lifts and pickups, until the Japanese got tired of losing and basically got lower body attacks like singles/doubles banned by appealing for rule changes to the IOC.
History lessons aside, I guess probably the main difference is that while more "traditional" wrestling singles and doubles start from positions like a collar and elbow tie (it's very tough to hit good wrestlers with single and doubles out in the open with just speed alone) whereas in sambo, there's different points to grip on the kurtka, so there's a few different setups you can play with (collar drag, sleeve drag, etc) that look a little different with the jacket on versus their wrestling counterparts. As others have stated, its difficult unless you have great timing, technique, and explosiveness to hit SL/DL once already engaged with the jackets on, so when they do happen in jacketed arts (in my experience) its usually with some upper body setup, or paired with some lower body attack like a foot sweep.
Tough question to answer and I'm having difficulty articulating a helpful answer. Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.
On Khabib specifically, he might be the best cage grappler in MMA and the best hand fighter on the cage in MMA. Almost all his fights have him eventually running you into the cage, and then hand fighting and ducking under to get behind you, breaking you down to all fours and then taking back or mount depending on your reaction. It's like watching a 3 minute long takedown sometimes. Pair that with the fact that he cuts a gross amount of weight and is so much bigger and stronger than anyone in the LW division, and you essentially have a guy who's takedowns are pretty much unstoppable.
So I
Your history lesson is totally wrong. This is a widely circulating myth that is simply not true. The rule change had nothing to do with Eastern Europeans dominating Judo. If you look at the medal tallies in high level competition they were not taking over.
Judo was becoming unwatchable due to judo players performing leg attacks and getting low scoring points and then stalling their way to victory. Not unlike advantage points in BJJ.
The IOC asked the IJF to update their rules to prevent this from happening, which resulted in the banning of leg attacks. I believe Japan voted against the rule change, but they are just one vote, so the rule changes took place. I am not sure now, but the Kodokan Judo allowed leg grabs for a while after the IJF rule changes.
My understanding is that there isn't one clear syllabus for sambo in Russia, each area or school teaches or focuses on different things. Some focus almost exclusively on judo techs with very little wrestling or ground work. Others are heavily free etc.
To me Khabib looks much more like a free wrestling influenced sambo fighter whereas fedor is a judo sambo fighter.
This
"If it works, it is part of SAMBO"
The major difference, that I noticed, was the angles and how we got there. The body only moves so many ways and most of us have figured that out. So the "trick" of all MA is to manipulate that.
Entries and counters others hadn't seen were beneficial to us in competition.
Judom has made the point many times that in the Caucus, “it’s all wrestling.” That is to say, they judo-wrestle, free sambo-wrestle, etc.
Khabib’s dad was heavily involved in wrestling and judo. My sense is that the differences in Dagestan just aren’t as broad as elsewhere. Kind of like the free relationship in the states.
The techniques have their roots in Judo, Greco Roman and Catch wrestling but also have been improved to better suit the then needs of the Russian army. It evolved into a unique of fighting, and is a martial art in it’s own right, the blend together. For example .Its a lot harder to shoot for singles and doubles if you have a jacket on. Your opponent can grab your jacket and stuff your takedown. Apart from the Tactical system there are two of Sambo with regards to Combat Sports that are practiced presently Sport Sambo and Combat Sambo.
I believe I heard or read somewhere that the Dagis sought to work with AKA because of Cormier’s highest level of wrestling and what they could learn from him and incorporate into their style.
Hence the change in Khabib’s style through the years
Lazarus - I practiced at a sambo school and the standup was mostly dirty judo, with a lot more flexibility on grips and so forth. I don't remember people using double leg and single leg takedowns much. Obviously, Khabib's school might be different.
I had a wrestling background and used a lot of forward motion in the beginning. One of the better guys there was a former wrestler and could recognize what I was doing. He took me aside and explained that wrestling was all forward motion, but judo and sambo was the opposite - all pulling. The jacket makes a world of difference. And if you try to shoot on someone while wearing a jacket, they can grab your jacket and stuff your takedown relatively easily.
I suppose if you’re fast enough, you could do your single and double leg takedowns anyway, but I suspect that Khabib also wrestled and learned his single leg and double legs while wrestling.
So from what you see, is Khabib more of a wrestler based or sambo based? On takedown/scramble/control bases?
Combat Sambo, which is what Khabib and Fedor were world champions in, is a basically a mixed martial arts sport before there was mixed martial arts. As Dennis said earlier different schools blend different so Khabib does not fight like Fedor, who does not fight like Zabit, etc.
Regular Sport Sambo, which has different rules than the sport of Combat Sambo, is basically Jacket wrestling which is a blend between today's wrestling and Judo.
Khabib considers himself a Sambo guy because he has done both wrestling and Sambo and he considers Sambo to be much tougher and more complete for his mma preperation. It includes grappling aspects and striking aspects that wrestlers have to seek elsewhere for.
Ocean6 - I believe I heard or read somewhere that the Dagis sought to work with AKA because of Cormier's highest level of wrestling and what they could learn from him and incorporate into their style.
Hence the change in Khabib’s style through the years
The main way their grappling developed at AKA was with their folk rides, not their takedowns.
Here is Khabib pre UFC. Notice how Sambo guys will fight off their back when on bottom. It does not surprise me to hear that Khabib worked on his folk rides at AKA as a lot of wrestlers in the UFC go to their knees.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYkG8jLD2Nw
I have only this experience to share. About 20 years ago when I first started BJJ my first instructor was a Judo guy turned BJJ guy.
He was Algerian and a coach for the Olympic Jr Team and he told me that when the Russians wanted to become a force in Judo they sent the Sambo guys to train with them and other judoka.
They learned a lot from each other and he said sambo complimented judo wuite well with dealing with oncoming force but where he really learned a lot was ankle/knee/leg locks.
That was what the Sambo guys brought to Judo and that was why the rule changes.
Ocean6 - I believe I heard or read somewhere that the Dagis sought to work with AKA because of Cormier's highest level of wrestling and what they could learn from him and incorporate into their style.
Hence the change in Khabib’s style through the years
The main way their grappling developed at AKA was with their folk rides, not their takedowns.
How many people here can watch sport sambo and know what’s going on, the scoring etc? I’m just curious.
An “ippon” in sambo is a throw that that puts your opponent flat on his back while you remain on your feet throughout the entirety of the technique and finish wheats judo any throw putting a guy flat on his back scores a win. Pins end a match in judo but in sambo it’s 4 points for a timed pin.
Here's another few factors to consider in the differences between sambo, judo and wrestling.
in the sambo events that I’ve attended and competed in I was informed that the typical wrestling/ crouched over stance was not allowed or could at least get you penalties. This is the same as judo because this stance is seen as too defensive/ passive. If both ppl are fighting in a more upright stance it is much more difficult to execute leg takedowns as level changes are more noticeable and easily defended.
Most of the the leg attacks that I’ve seen in sambo or in old school judo are usually the snatch single leg from failed foot sweep or the knee tap / ankle pick which are probably the ones most likely to work from upright stance.
Another interesting factor to consider is that leg attacks are obviously the most effective takedown method in mma however the reason for why they were encouraged in folk- wrestling over high amplitude throws is that they are relatively safe in terms of injuries to either wrestler compared to what is seen in judo, sambo, free and Greco.
Finally i remember Fedor saying in an interview that he preferred upper body throws over leg attacks due to the potential of exhausting your arms from holding an opponent’s legs and then not being able to punch or defend punches. Which combined with his judo influence and the fact that he was in the heavyweight division may also explain his focus on upper body throws.
The closest I've been to really having an opportunity to train in sambo is that I trained at a very good judo school that got a lot of high level international players and one of the Bulgarian guys explained to me that in places like Russia/Soviet Union, training could be fairly informal sometimes and people from all three arts would often train together, particularly the judo and sambo guys. In sport, this led to a paradigm shift of sorts in Judo as Soviet players became a force to be reckoned with in Olympic judo because they were countering the traditional bolt upright standup of "Japanese judo" with a bunch of different lifts and pickups, until the Japanese got tired of losing and basically got lower body attacks like singles/doubles banned by appealing for rule changes to the IOC.
History lessons aside, I guess probably the main difference is that while more "traditional" wrestling singles and doubles start from positions like a collar and elbow tie (it's very tough to hit good wrestlers with single and doubles out in the open with just speed alone) whereas in sambo, there's different points to grip on the kurtka, so there's a few different setups you can play with (collar drag, sleeve drag, etc) that look a little different with the jacket on versus their wrestling counterparts. As others have stated, its difficult unless you have great timing, technique, and explosiveness to hit SL/DL once already engaged with the jackets on, so when they do happen in jacketed arts (in my experience) its usually with some upper body setup, or paired with some lower body attack like a foot sweep.
Tough question to answer and I'm having difficulty articulating a helpful answer. Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.
On Khabib specifically, he might be the best cage grappler in MMA and the best hand fighter on the cage in MMA. Almost all his fights have him eventually running you into the cage, and then hand fighting and ducking under to get behind you, breaking you down to all fours and then taking back or mount depending on your reaction. It's like watching a 3 minute long takedown sometimes. Pair that with the fact that he cuts a gross amount of weight and is so much bigger and stronger than anyone in the LW division, and you essentially have a guy who's takedowns are pretty much unstoppable.
So I
Your history lesson is totally wrong. This is a widely circulating myth that is simply not true. The rule change had nothing to do with Eastern Europeans dominating Judo. If you look at the medal tallies in high level competition they were not taking over.
Judo was becoming unwatchable due to judo players performing leg attacks and getting low scoring points and then stalling their way to victory. Not unlike advantage points in BJJ.
The IOC asked the IJF to update their rules to prevent this from happening, which resulted in the banning of leg attacks. I believe Japan voted against the rule change, but they are just one vote, so the rule changes took place. I am not sure now, but the Kodokan Judo allowed leg grabs for a while after the IJF rule changes.
Interesting. Thank you for the insight and corrections.