How is Jon Jones the GOAT?

Underground
1

To some people he is. I dont see any logical argument to support this claim outside of things that cant be measured.

If you speak on things that can be proven and not with things that are "eye tests", then I cant see you making a strong case for Jon Jones. Most people will say he is the most talented fighter to ever grace the 8 sided cage. This I totally agree with. What he does to people at their own game rivals GSP at times.

What you can measure is his bodies build. He has the closes build to perfection that I have seen in MMA. Crazy long reach with both his legs and his arms. He can use leverage that makes him seem stronger then what he really is. Also hes strong as fuck.

But thats about it that will put him past the others who are in the GOAT debate.

He has a total of 8 title defenses and won an Interm Belt. Which is a record for LHW but it is not THE record for the UFC.  Guys like Anderson Silva and Mighty Mouse both have 10 each. Jon Jones has won the belt twice with one being an interm belt. Which is not the record for LHW. Randy Couture won the LHW belt twice.

Some people say Jones is the GOAT because the resume of the people he beat is better then anything any other guy beat in the GOAT Debate while in a title fight. This I disagree with. Dont get me wrong, its impressive. But did he beat them in their primes or when they were about to fall off? We honestly dont know. Its not something you can for sure measure. What we can measure is how their careers went after they lost to Jones.

Shogun: 6-5

Rampage: 5-3

Lyoto Machida: 5-4 (2-1 at LHW/ 3-3 at MW)

Rashad Evans: 2-4 (2-3 at LHW/ 0-1 at MW)

Vitor Belfort: 4-4 (3-4 at MW/ 1-0 at LHW)

Chael Sonnen: 1-2

Alexander Gustafsson: 2-2

Glover Teixeira: 4-2

Daniel Cormier: 4-0

Ovince Saint Preux: 0-2

Thats a combined record of 33-28. Not that impressive. Now one can make the argument "but Brute that just proves that fighting Jon Jones will mess you up so much that your not the same after fighting him!". Again ill say "well thats not some thing you can measure. I look at the date and I see that it just means that Jones beat these guys when they were at the end of their peaks". But again thats not something I can for sure measure. So, take that data how you will.

 

When it comes down to it, Goat debates are always subjective. But I think the reasons why someone is the GOAT should not be. GOAT can mean mean one of 2 things most of the time. Those things are (A.) He/she is either the best to ever do it in their field of sport and on their best day cant be beat by anyone (MJ,Ray Robinson, Jerry Rice) or B. Had the biggest influence on their sport ever (Ali, also MJ).

I think Jones is the closer to fitting (A.) more then (B.) for sure. And while I do think he is the best LHW to ever do it. I think guys like Anderson Silva-Mighty Mouse-Fedor-GSP are closer to being the unbeatable fighter on their best night then Jones is. But again, thats subjective. What those guys do have over Jones is that they have longer title reigns and number of defenses. So again, when it comes to thing you can for sure measure. Jones does not stake up.

 

2

BruteDion -

To some people he is. I dont see any logical argument to support this claim outside of things that cant be measured.

If you speak on things that can be proven and not with things that are "eye tests", then I cant see you making a strong case for Jon Jones. Most people will say he is the most talented fighter to ever grace the 8 sided cage. This I totally agree with. What he does to people at their own game rivals GSP at times.

What you can measure is his bodies build. He has the closes build to perfection that I have seen in MMA. Crazy long reach with both his legs and his arms. He can use leverage that makes him seem stronger then what he really is. Also hes strong as fuck.

But thats about it that will put him past the others who are in the GOAT debate.

He has a total of 8 title defenses and won an Interm Belt. Which is a record for LHW but it is not THE record for the UFC.  Guys like Anderson Silva and Mighty Mouse both have 10 each. Jon Jones has won the belt twice with one being an interm belt. Which is not the record for LHW. Randy Couture won the LHW belt twice.

Some people say Jones is the GOAT because the resume of the people he beat is better then anything any other guy beat in the GOAT Debate while in a title fight. This I disagree with. Dont get me wrong, its impressive. But did he beat them in their primes or when they were about to fall off? We honestly dont know. Its not something you can for sure measure. What we can measure is how their careers went after they lost to Jones.

Shogun: 6-5

Rampage: 5-3

Lyoto Machida: 5-4 (2-1 at LHW/ 3-3 at MW)

Rashad Evans: 2-4 (2-3 at LHW/ 0-1 at MW)

Vitor Belfort: 4-4 (3-4 at MW/ 1-0 at LHW)

Chael Sonnen: 1-2

Alexander Gustafsson: 2-2

Glover Teixeira: 4-2

Daniel Cormier: 4-0

Ovince Saint Preux: 0-2

Thats a combined record of 33-28. Not that impressive. Now one can make the argument "but Brute that just proves that fighting Jon Jones will mess you up so much that your not the same after fighting him!". Again ill say "well thats not some thing you can measure. I look at the date and I see that it just means that Jones beat these guys when they were at the end of their peaks". But again thats not something I can for sure measure. So, take that data how you will.

 

When it comes down to it, Goat debates are always subjective. But I think the reasons why someone is the GOAT should not be. GOAT can mean mean one of 2 things most of the time. Those things are (A.) He/she is either the best to ever do it in their field of sport and on their best day cant be beat by anyone (MJ,Ray Robinson, Jerry Rice) or B. Had the biggest influence on their sport ever (Ali, also MJ).

I think Jones is the closer to fitting (A.) more then (B.) for sure. And while I do think he is the best LHW to ever do it. I think guys like Anderson Silva-Mighty Mouse-Fedor-GSP are closer to being the unbeatable fighter on their best night then Jones is. But again, thats subjective. What those guys do have over Jones is that they have longer title reigns and number of defenses. So again, when it comes to thing you can for sure measure. Jones does not stake up.

 

GSP is the GOAT. He never popped for dick pills and beat the best competition over and over again.

3

Fedor is the GOAT. Fedor locked down the HW division for 8 solid years, arguably without losing a single round.

Also being at HW, a strong assumption is that he would have beaten every other weight class as well at open weight.

4

thetouchofdeath -
BruteDion -

To some people he is. I dont see any logical argument to support this claim outside of things that cant be measured.

If you speak on things that can be proven and not with things that are "eye tests", then I cant see you making a strong case for Jon Jones. Most people will say he is the most talented fighter to ever grace the 8 sided cage. This I totally agree with. What he does to people at their own game rivals GSP at times.

What you can measure is his bodies build. He has the closes build to perfection that I have seen in MMA. Crazy long reach with both his legs and his arms. He can use leverage that makes him seem stronger then what he really is. Also hes strong as fuck.

But thats about it that will put him past the others who are in the GOAT debate.

He has a total of 8 title defenses and won an Interm Belt. Which is a record for LHW but it is not THE record for the UFC.  Guys like Anderson Silva and Mighty Mouse both have 10 each. Jon Jones has won the belt twice with one being an interm belt. Which is not the record for LHW. Randy Couture won the LHW belt twice.

Some people say Jones is the GOAT because the resume of the people he beat is better then anything any other guy beat in the GOAT Debate while in a title fight. This I disagree with. Dont get me wrong, its impressive. But did he beat them in their primes or when they were about to fall off? We honestly dont know. Its not something you can for sure measure. What we can measure is how their careers went after they lost to Jones.

Shogun: 6-5

Rampage: 5-3

Lyoto Machida: 5-4 (2-1 at LHW/ 3-3 at MW)

Rashad Evans: 2-4 (2-3 at LHW/ 0-1 at MW)

Vitor Belfort: 4-4 (3-4 at MW/ 1-0 at LHW)

Chael Sonnen: 1-2

Alexander Gustafsson: 2-2

Glover Teixeira: 4-2

Daniel Cormier: 4-0

Ovince Saint Preux: 0-2

Thats a combined record of 33-28. Not that impressive. Now one can make the argument "but Brute that just proves that fighting Jon Jones will mess you up so much that your not the same after fighting him!". Again ill say "well thats not some thing you can measure. I look at the date and I see that it just means that Jones beat these guys when they were at the end of their peaks". But again thats not something I can for sure measure. So, take that data how you will.

 

When it comes down to it, Goat debates are always subjective. But I think the reasons why someone is the GOAT should not be. GOAT can mean mean one of 2 things most of the time. Those things are (A.) He/she is either the best to ever do it in their field of sport and on their best day cant be beat by anyone (MJ,Ray Robinson, Jerry Rice) or B. Had the biggest influence on their sport ever (Ali, also MJ).

I think Jones is the closer to fitting (A.) more then (B.) for sure. And while I do think he is the best LHW to ever do it. I think guys like Anderson Silva-Mighty Mouse-Fedor-GSP are closer to being the unbeatable fighter on their best night then Jones is. But again, thats subjective. What those guys do have over Jones is that they have longer title reigns and number of defenses. So again, when it comes to thing you can for sure measure. Jones does not stake up.

 

GSP is the GOAT. He never popped for dick pills and beat the best competition over and over again.

I dont think GSP is the GOAT but his case is for sure stronger then Jones has.

Without looking at it, I think the guys who lost to GSP may have a better record then the guys Jones beat after their title fight lose. I could be wrong.

5

You could make the same argument that Jones took their soul and confidence --> careers falling off

Jones' competition has been extemely fierce, however, there will always be an asterix next to his name due to the estrogen blockers/hiding from USADA

6

Son of Neckbone - Fedor is the GOAT. Fedor locked down the HW division for 8 solid years, arguably without losing a single round.

Also being at HW, a strong assumption is that he would have beaten every other weight class as well at open weight.

I think Fedor has the best resume of guys hes beat then anyone ever in MMA. people say Jones beat some legends and that makes him the goat. Fedor has beat just as good guys.

7

He's top 5 GOAT for sure. 

8

triforce -

You could make the same argument that Jones took their soul and confidence --> careers falling off

Jones' competition has been extemely fierce, however, there will always be an asterix next to his name due to the estrogen blockers/hiding from USADA

did you bother to trully read my post or did you justr skim it?

9

RKing85 -

He's top 5 GOAT for sure. 

Oh for sure. I dont even think thats up for debate. Bing the Best LHW to ever do it makes you top 5 by default almost because of the history that the LHW division has.

Im just making the case that him being #1 only really uses "eye test" subjective things. Of the things you can truly measure, he does not stack up to Silva-MM-GSP-Fedor.

10

IMO: 2 options.


1. Fedor is GOAT.
He was realistically undefeated for about 10 years. He beat most of the best HWs of his era. He also beat the arguable #2 greatest HW -- and VERY arguable the best HE we had seen at the time -- Big Nog. Fedor did this convincingly. He also beat the arguable #3 HW of that era in Cro Cop -- as well as former UFC champs Sylvia and Arlovski. Fedor brought an attack that was very difficult for any type of fighter to deal with. He brought poise, toughness, and heart. And he did all of this at HW -- the most formidable division that is often forgotten by newer fans.


2. There is no GOAT.
MMA/NHB is too young, an the learning curve is too exaggerated to crown a GOAT at this time.
Everything is relative -- and Royce Gracie has just as much claim to GOAT status as anyone.
Call me in about 50 years.

IMO, those are the 2 options.

I'd Fedor isn't the GOAT, nobody is -- and by extension-- Royce is just as deserving.

As always, IMHO.

11

onepunchJD - IMO: 2 options.


1. Fedor is GOAT.
He was realistically undefeated for about 10 years. He beat most of the best HWs of his era. He also beat the arguable #2 greatest HW -- and VERY arguable the best HE we had seen at the time -- Big Nog. Fedor did this convincingly. He also beat the arguable #3 HW of that era in Cro Cop -- as well as former UFC champs Sylvia and Arlovski. Fedor brought an attack that was very difficult for any type of fighter to deal with. He brought poise, toughness, and heart. And he did all of this at HW -- the most formidable division that is often forgotten by newer fans.


2. There is no GOAT.
MMA/NHB is too young, an the learning curve is too exaggerated to crown a GOAT at this time.
Everything is relative -- and Royce Gracie has just as much claim to GOAT status as anyone.
Call me in about 50 years.

IMO, those are the 2 options.

I"d Fedor isn"t the GOAT, nobody is -- and by extension-- Royce is just as deserving.

As always, IMHO.

Dont forget he beat to most people the best HW kickboxer of all time in Semmy Schilt. To me its Ernesto Hoost but thats a subject for a different thread.

12

what are MMs combined opponents records?

13

BruteDion -
triforce -

You could make the same argument that Jones took their soul and confidence --> careers falling off

Jones' competition has been extemely fierce, however, there will always be an asterix next to his name due to the estrogen blockers/hiding from USADA

did you bother to trully read my post or did you justr skim it?

You briefly mentioned that someone could say the opposite; which is what I am doing. Your entire argument is based on fighters record after they fight Jones and YOU'RE making an assumption that their subpar records were indicative that they were never actually in their prime when they fought him. It's kind of a weak argument when there's no basis for it. Every one of those fighters with the exception of Chael and Rampage were in their prime when they fought him. FFS he even fought a TRT vitor and of course when he went off TRT his record was gonna go to shit.

14

onepunchJD - IMO: 2 options.


1. Fedor is GOAT.
He was realistically undefeated for about 10 years. He beat most of the best HWs of his era. He also beat the arguable #2 greatest HW -- and VERY arguable the best HE we had seen at the time -- Big Nog. Fedor did this convincingly. He also beat the arguable #3 HW of that era in Cro Cop -- as well as former UFC champs Sylvia and Arlovski. Fedor brought an attack that was very difficult for any type of fighter to deal with. He brought poise, toughness, and heart. And he did all of this at HW -- the most formidable division that is often forgotten by newer fans.


2. There is no GOAT.
MMA/NHB is too young, an the learning curve is too exaggerated to crown a GOAT at this time.
Everything is relative -- and Royce Gracie has just as much claim to GOAT status as anyone.
Call me in about 50 years.

IMO, those are the 2 options.

I"d Fedor isn"t the GOAT, nobody is -- and by extension-- Royce is just as deserving.

As always, IMHO.

When you consider that these fucking heavyweights cant string together more than a few wins without taking a loss, it shows how special Fedor really was. 

Jones also going this far at LHW is amazing. 

15

American MMA fans obsession with the GOAT is genuinely worrying. Every fucking week for 10 years the GOAT is debated. WTF. 

16

I have Fedor, Anderson Silva, and Jon Jones in my top 3. GSP at #4.

17

It's hard to determine who is the goat. I don't understand why people think there's a correct answer to this question.

My opinion: Anderson Silva

He cleaned out the division and did it in spectacular fashion. He took down a longstanding champion to do it. His reign was fantastic and exciting; he knocked people out in two divisions. Matrix mode vs Forest Griffin is probably the greatest clip of mixed martial arts to this date.

I can see why some would think GSP. He was dominate and efficient. I get it.

I can see why some would think Jones. The man doesn't lose. And he's winning in the premiere division of MMA -- LHW.

I can see why some would think Fedor. He was the first great heavyweight in this sport. Scratch that -- the only.

I can see why some would think Ronda. She is an expert boxer who could stand with the likes of Floyd Mayweather.

My pick is Andy.

18

EddiePain420 - 

i agree that GSP is the goat,absolute hardest competition.


Not a chance in hell. Matt Mitrione smashes anyone GSP ever fought and he then takes GSP's anus at will. And that's middle of the road Mat Mitrione.

Fedor is the greatest the past 25 years.

19

His heart in the Gus fight, the way he choked out Machida standing, how he made Shogun tap to strikes, fighting out of the Vitor armbar, outwrestling Cormier, and Cormier himself has an argument for Top 5 GOAT himself if it wasn't for his Jones loss. Jon has that premiere win which solidifies him Top 5 and some memorable moments from his fights.

20

Is this GOAT or pfp GOAT?