How is Jon Jones the GOAT?

you know how you know jon is the Goat if there was no jon jones we would be talking about DC as the goat...

just sayin

its jon or mm until one of them gets beat ...

And who is beating mm in that division his most dangerous challengers are still joseph benivedez and john Dodson. I guess we can hold out hope that henry cejudo can improve and work his way back to another shot.

THP - It's hard to determine who is the goat. I don't understand why people think there's a correct answer to this question.

My opinion: Anderson Silva

He cleaned out the division and did it in spectacular fashion. He took down a longstanding champion to do it. His reign was fantastic and exciting; he knocked people out in two divisions. Matrix mode vs Forest Griffin is probably the greatest clip of mixed martial arts to this date.

I can see why some would think GSP. He was dominate and efficient. I get it.

I can see why some would think Jones. The man doesn't lose. And he's winning in the premiere division of MMA -- LHW.

I can see why some would think Fedor. He was the first great heavyweight in this sport. Scratch that -- the only.

I can see why some would think Ronda. She is an expert boxer who could stand with the likes of Floyd Mayweather.

My pick is Andy.

I agree with this. There is no wrong answer and it's only each persons opinion. Everyone's record can be dissected to focus on the negative. "GSP fought a lot of LW opponents and couldn't finish, Fedor fought many opponents out of the top 10, Anderson competition was weak, MM's division is garbage, Jones is too big," etc... they are all up there and the list will always be interchangeable based on who makes it.

Fact is, OP breaks down Jones' opponents but all those guys were supposed to beat him when he fought them.

I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Take your pick. I've got Anderson because I'm a nuthugger 

 

FEDOR, 36-4, 17yr career, 9yrs undefeated, still fighting

Big wins - Big Nog UD x 2, Coleman SUB x 2, Cro Cop UD, Sylvia SUB, Arlovski KO

Losses - Kohsaka, Werdum, Hendo, Big Foot

 

ANDERSON, 34-8, 20yr career, 7yrs undefeated, still fighting

Big wins - Sakurai UD, Franklin KO and TKO, Hendo SUB, Forest KO, Sonnen SUB and TKO, Belfort KO

Losses - Azeredo, Takase, Chonan, Okami DQ, Weidman x 2, Bisping, Cormier

 

GSP, 25-2, 12yr career, 7yrs undefeated, returning to fighting

Big wins - Sherk TKO, BJ SD and TKO, Hughes TKO and SUB, Shields UD, Condit UD, Diaz UD, Hendricks SD

Losses - Hughes, Serra

 

JONES, 22-1, 8yr career, 7yrs undefeated, returning to fighting

Big wins - Shogun TKO, Rampage SUB, Machida SUB, Rashad UD, Belfort SUB, Gus UD, Glover UD, Cormier UD

Losses - Hamill DQ

FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Funny.....The huge Anderson fan points out that Jones tested positive for steroids twice in one post, and completely neglects to mention that Anderson was recently suspended for a year for, you know, steroids.

FrontBroRian -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Funny.....The huge Anderson fan points out that Jones tested positive for steroids twice in one post, and completely neglects to mention that Anderson was recently suspended for a year for, you know, steroids.
Funny, more that I said "during his run"....

Yes Silva cheated as well, but not ever did he test positive while on his run. Only after losing twice, after his prime, and recovering from a shattered leg.

Both are cheaters but there is a difference.

BIG LOL @ GSP!!!!!!!


He got Serra'd.

No one KOed JJ yet!.

not gonna read this just gonna go ahead and assume AKA is your favorite camp. You've never had fun in your life, aaaand you sell avon. 

FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
FrontBroRian -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Funny.....The huge Anderson fan points out that Jones tested positive for steroids twice in one post, and completely neglects to mention that Anderson was recently suspended for a year for, you know, steroids.
Funny, more that I said "during his run"....

Yes Silva cheated as well, but not ever did he test positive while on his run. Only after losing twice, after his prime, and recovering from a shattered leg.

Both are cheaters but there is a difference.

Both tested positive after they had lost their belts. Neither were champion and neither were on a title run. Again, funny you completely neglect to mention that Anderson cheated until you were called out on it.

FrontBroRian -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
FrontBroRian -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Funny.....The huge Anderson fan points out that Jones tested positive for steroids twice in one post, and completely neglects to mention that Anderson was recently suspended for a year for, you know, steroids.
Funny, more that I said "during his run"....

Yes Silva cheated as well, but not ever did he test positive while on his run. Only after losing twice, after his prime, and recovering from a shattered leg.

Both are cheaters but there is a difference.

Both tested positive after they had lost their belts. Neither were champion and neither were on a title run. Again, funny you completely neglect to mention that Anderson cheated until you were called out on it.
So you don't think people are aware that Silva tested positive on an mms forum?

You can word it how you want, Jones' undefeated streak is still in tact. He was stripped of his belt he didn't lose a fight.

He also ducked USADA before that, and had obviously suspect T levels while champ.

The situations are different and you know it. He keeps winning and he is still undefeated and his run continues.

Only one of them is a proven cheater while on their "GOAT" run. I tried to make that clear when I said "on his run".

Jones has never lost and fought the more well rounded opponents compared to the others. 

FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
FrontBroRian -
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

Funny.....The huge Anderson fan points out that Jones tested positive for steroids twice in one post, and completely neglects to mention that Anderson was recently suspended for a year for, you know, steroids.
Funny, more that I said "during his run"....

Yes Silva cheated as well, but not ever did he test positive while on his run. Only after losing twice, after his prime, and recovering from a shattered leg.

Both are cheaters but there is a difference.

Silva was never tested by USADA during his run. His entire legacy should be in question

SensoriaUtopia - 
FETT_Lay'n'PrayNINJA - I'm sorry but Jones as to right now is a suspended steroid user who was stripped of the belt.

He didn't break the records or WINNING streaks of Fedor or Silva and MM has pulled past him while he has been out.

He has a chance at returning and continuing his run, but even then he is the only one in the discussion who has popped for steroids during his run at the top.

Fedor and Anderson both have a history of fighting larger opponents and still winning. Something Jones has yet to do unless he moves up a division.

This post makes no sense, you want to hold Jones accountable for steroids, when there is no direct proof, he popped for clomiphene, possibly to cover up steroids, or maybe not, we dont know, but Anderson has actually been popped with steroids, and it was 2 different kinds of strong steroids in his system, plus the whole MMA world saw him years ago on MTV cribs with syringes in his closet, and multiple people he trains with have also popped

 

 

So you want to hold Jones accountable, but turn a blind eye to Anderosn, who actually has popped for 2 steroids, yeah.................no


He will take any opportunity he can to shit on Jones in order to build up Anderson.

"So you don't think people are aware that Silva tested positive on an mms forum? "

No I believe people are aware that he tested positive. I also believe those same people are aware that Jones tested positive. However, you chose to point out that only of them did, and you mentioned it twice.

EddiePain420 - 
seek - BIG LOL @ GSP!!!!!!!


He got Serra"d.

No one KOed JJ yet!.

he also avenged all his losses and finished those opponents. and didnt do steroids,drugs,or commit crimes,and act like a total fuckboy in front of the entire world.

 

he fought the absolute hardest competition. retired as champion. GOAT


His competition included Serra twice, BJ twice, Sherk, and Diaz. All fighters who competed from 145-160 yet people mention that Jones only fights smaller guys. I'd disagree that he fought the absolute hardest competition.

And LOL at he didn't do steroids. No, he didn't test positive. But you look at the people he was affiliated with, plus the smell test, plus several other factors, I think most know he wasn't the squeaky clean fighter his fans make him out to be.

BruteDion - 

To some people he is. I dont see any logical argument to support this claim outside of things that cant be measured.

If you speak on things that can be proven and not with things that are "eye tests", then I cant see you making a strong case for Jon Jones. Most people will say he is the most talented fighter to ever grace the 8 sided cage. This I totally agree with. What he does to people at their own game rivals GSP at times.

What you can measure is his bodies build. He has the closes build to perfection that I have seen in MMA. Crazy long reach with both his legs and his arms. He can use leverage that makes him seem stronger then what he really is. Also hes strong as fuck.

But thats about it that will put him past the others who are in the GOAT debate.

He has a total of 8 title defenses and won an Interm Belt. Which is a record for LHW but it is not THE record for the UFC.  Guys like Anderson Silva and Mighty Mouse both have 10 each. Jon Jones has won the belt twice with one being an interm belt. Which is not the record for LHW. Randy Couture won the LHW belt twice.

Some people say Jones is the GOAT because the resume of the people he beat is better then anything any other guy beat in the GOAT Debate while in a title fight. This I disagree with. Dont get me wrong, its impressive. But did he beat them in their primes or when they were about to fall off? We honestly dont know. Its not something you can for sure measure. What we can measure is how their careers went after they lost to Jones.

Shogun: 6-5

Rampage: 5-3

Lyoto Machida: 5-4 (2-1 at LHW/ 3-3 at MW)

Rashad Evans: 2-4 (2-3 at LHW/ 0-1 at MW)

Vitor Belfort: 4-4 (3-4 at MW/ 1-0 at LHW)

Chael Sonnen: 1-2

Alexander Gustafsson: 2-2

Glover Teixeira: 4-2

Daniel Cormier: 4-0

Ovince Saint Preux: 0-2

Thats a combined record of 33-28. Not that impressive. Now one can make the argument "but Brute that just proves that fighting Jon Jones will mess you up so much that your not the same after fighting him!". Again ill say "well thats not some thing you can measure. I look at the date and I see that it just means that Jones beat these guys when they were at the end of their peaks". But again thats not something I can for sure measure. So, take that data how you will.

 

When it comes down to it, Goat debates are always subjective. But I think the reasons why someone is the GOAT should not be. GOAT can mean mean one of 2 things most of the time. Those things are (A.) He/she is either the best to ever do it in their field of sport and on their best day cant be beat by anyone (MJ,Ray Robinson, Jerry Rice) or B. Had the biggest influence on their sport ever (Ali, also MJ).

I think Jones is the closer to fitting (A.) more then (B.) for sure. And while I do think he is the best LHW to ever do it. I think guys like Anderson Silva-Mighty Mouse-Fedor-GSP are closer to being the unbeatable fighter on their best night then Jones is. But again, thats subjective. What those guys do have over Jones is that they have longer title reigns and number of defenses. So again, when it comes to thing you can for sure measure. Jones does not stake up.

 


Good analysis. Good conversation.

I can't say that I agree that the most accurate indicator of how good a fighter is when he fought JJ is to look their record after the fight.

After the fight, there's too many variables that goes into why their record is less than stellar:
- JJ stole their soul (as you stated)
- the title shot was their last chance
- by virtue of fighting the champ you are now a top 5 fighter and now only fight other top 5 fighters
- the climb back to a title is too demoralizing, change of camps etc.

On the other side of the equation seems to be - "their skill set was deteriorating anyways".



I think that a fighter's record before he fights JJ is a far more accurate indicator of how dangerous they will be in the fight. As I'm sure you know, the stats change much more favourably when you look at those records.


As much as I love Mighty Mouse, there is one thing that's been left out of this conversation. In comparison to LHW, how deep is the 125lb talent pool around the world in MMA? I'm guessing that there's as least twice as many 205ers out there than there are 125lbsers. It's the same reason my Rhonda Rousey could never be in the conversation (when she was winning).

triforce - 
BruteDion -
triforce -

You could make the same argument that Jones took their soul and confidence --> careers falling off

Jones' competition has been extemely fierce, however, there will always be an asterix next to his name due to the estrogen blockers/hiding from USADA

did you bother to trully read my post or did you justr skim it?

You briefly mentioned that someone could say the opposite; which is what I am doing. Your entire argument is based on fighters record after they fight Jones and YOU'RE making an assumption that their subpar records were indicative that they were never actually in their prime when they fought him. It's kind of a weak argument when there's no basis for it. Every one of those fighters with the exception of Chael and Rampage were in their prime when they fought him. FFS he even fought a TRT vitor and of course when he went off TRT his record was gonna go to shit.


So then you just skimmed it. That's not my "entire argument". My argument is that the argument for Jon Jones being the goat are all subjective; where the other guys in the GOAT debate may have things you can measure and are no just subjective things.

EddiePain420 - 
FrontBroRian -
EddiePain420 - 
seek - BIG LOL @ GSP!!!!!!!


He got Serra"d.

No one KOed JJ yet!.

he also avenged all his losses and finished those opponents. and didnt do steroids,drugs,or commit crimes,and act like a total fuckboy in front of the entire world.

 

he fought the absolute hardest competition. retired as champion. GOAT


His competition included Serra twice, BJ twice, Sherk, and Diaz. All fighters who competed from 145-160 yet people mention that Jones only fights smaller guys. I"d disagree that he fought the absolute hardest competition.

And LOL at he didn"t do steroids. No, he didn"t test positive. But you look at the people he was affiliated with, plus the smell test, plus several other factors, I think most know he wasn"t the squeaky clean fighter his fans make him out to be.

 

 

GSP was the one calling for stricter testing because hendricks was a blatant roid user......

 

 


Ha Ha you bought that one hook line and sinker.



GSP called for and went through the strict testing for the only time in his career, because he was going to be clean for that bout. Of course he needed his opponent to be clean as well. Or did you miss his 25 other bouts where he made no fuss about the testing?

SinCityHustler - 
EddiePain420 - 
FrontBroRian -
EddiePain420 - 
seek - BIG LOL @ GSP!!!!!!!


He got Serra"d.

No one KOed JJ yet!.

he also avenged all his losses and finished those opponents. and didnt do steroids,drugs,or commit crimes,and act like a total fuckboy in front of the entire world.

 

he fought the absolute hardest competition. retired as champion. GOAT


His competition included Serra twice, BJ twice, Sherk, and Diaz. All fighters who competed from 145-160 yet people mention that Jones only fights smaller guys. I"d disagree that he fought the absolute hardest competition.

And LOL at he didn"t do steroids. No, he didn"t test positive. But you look at the people he was affiliated with, plus the smell test, plus several other factors, I think most know he wasn"t the squeaky clean fighter his fans make him out to be.

 

 

GSP was the one calling for stricter testing because hendricks was a blatant roid user......

 

 


Ha Ha you bought that one hook line and sinker.



GSP called for and went through the strict testing for the only time in his career, because he was going to be clean for that bout. Of course he needed his opponent to be clean as well. Or did you miss his 25 other bouts where he made no fuss about the testing?

This...it's like the closet homo that runs around and call gays disgusting faggots

Best fighter skillswise or most statistically dominant as the goat

If skillwise = gsp
Dominance = Andy
Open weight goat = Jones