Thanks everyone for all the info!
Red73 - I knew you were a badass but I didn't know you knew judo too! While I always thought you could slam me on my head, I didn't know that you could make it look technical and beautiful too. Thanks for the words and hope all is well!
Chris, so Doc didn't mean he would teach all the throws and takedowns that a modern BB Judoka would know, just Kosen judo.
Doc should write a book. Maybe a Bio. He has so many cool stories.
Like during the war one of his 'friends' challenged a Imperial Army officer to try and shoot himfrom 10 feet away before he could disarm him .
His friend did a mae ukemi, popped up right infront of the officer and took the gun away.
:) Matt-
"Chris, so Doc didn't mean he would teach all the throws and takedowns that a modern BB Judoka would know, just Kosen judo."
He'd would teach some throws...but primarly enough to defend so you could get your opponent on the mat. The dojo doc trained in japan was know for its matwork. Doc prefered standup, but after a severe leg injury that kept him off the mat for over a year, he spent all that time doing matwork instead.
When doc used to compete his dojo was know for "pulling guard" instead of standing up. I'm sure you've done the hiki-komi-gaeshi (looks like a backwards roll into the mount). Those are the types of entries to matwork that doc's old dojo mastered. Hence he could teach someone with avaerage ability to be able to hang at blackbelt level compition by knowing how to nullify standing attacks and holding down or finishing them with submissions.
But again..I'll get flamed for this...most people I know that have gotten there black belts(shodan levels) in japan (mostly non-asians)there skills were not on par with the majority of avergae blackbelts(lower level blackbelts) that I've met. Especially from the kodokan, I'm not sure if there requirenments are not the same as the japanese university dojos (whose shodan seem to have a much higher skill level and understading of the basics). Then again it could be just the kodokan's expectations of non-asains??? Thats not an attack just a question.
where I can learn from this doctor?!
Doc. Ashida runs Renshinkan Judo Club @ Brockport State College in Brockport NY.
Unfortanlty he us getting on in years...(I think early 80's now)and is not as able body as he used to be (just had a hip replacement put it). Has amazing stories and knowledge. He's and 8th Dan in Kodokan Judo and a Doctor in Psychology.
MM wrote:"That's weird (considering they dont know how often you are training or what you are contributing)..Got any more info on the timelines Ben? I never knew that..(never promoted anyone:) Just speaking from what I've seen."
I think the JA has their promotion stuff online at their website. They have a comprehensive promotion system. I think JF also has theirs online too. For JI, it varies from state to state, but JI does have minimum time in rank and other standards.
Ben R.
"At the same time, I realize the shodan is what it is, a first step..
It would seem both fair and unfair to have timelines."
On one hand, it would stop people from intentionally holding you back (is this why it was started?)..On the other, it would allow those who have not put forth the effort to advance rank merely by affiliation...or wouldnt it? I dont know, anywayz any more info appreciated:)"
Regarding the holding back issue, it doesn't necessarily stop the practice, because you would normally have to be reccomended for promotion by somebody. I don't think you can just show up and say "I'm ready for shodan, test me". I think there are exceptions though in all three organizations.
In reality, all of the systems depend on the honesty and integrity of the instructors doing the promotion. If that is lacking, basically anything goes.
I've seen it with my own eyes more than once in all three national organizations.
Ben Reinhardt
FatBuddha wrote:"Ben: Do you mean technqiue wise (when you say a 1st Degree blackbelt in Judo is a LOT different than a blackbelt in brazilian jiu-jitsu)?"
From my understanding, a black belt in BJJ is in general much more of an expert than a shodan (first degree black) in Judo. Shodan in Judo does not denote expert level skill, period. Quality varies wildly. A shodan could be a guy who is a recreational player who took 8 years to get it, or an up and coming teenage competitor who is kicking ass and taking names and made it in 3 years. Just look at the difference in numbers of shodan promotions in Judo vs the number of black belt promotions in BJJ. Lots more each year than in BJJ.
"If thats what you mean, oh yes, I realize they are 2 completely different arts and that I would be starting from scratch as a white belt. I honestly would just like to begin by getting a real good understanding of the basics and get good at a few throws, eventually learning that fundamental set of throws."
Of course the techniques will vary. BJJ specializes in groundwork, Judo is much more of a mix of ground and throwing. You won't do any no-gi work in Judo, and probably not a lot of self defense (although that will vary depending on your instructor).
Ben R.
FatBuddha wrote:"Another question - how come I hear on other forums talk about it possible to get a blackbelt in 2 years, etc?"
I do not think it is possible to get a legitimate black belt in Judo in 2 years time from any of the three national Judo organizations in the USA. It just takes more time than that. From what I understand, that would be impossible in BJJ, too, but I'm not familiar with their standards.
"Is this just plain wrong or are there differences in academies?"
In the USA, for Judo, there are, but the rank standards should not vary that much.
"Is it also true that a blackbelt in BJJ is more of a "master" rank while a blackbelt in judo just represents an advanced rank and fundamental knowledge of all the essential basics? (kind of like maybe a purple belt in bjj?)"
That's my understanding, that BJJ black belts are going to be more "experts" in their field than a first degree black belt in Judo. Shodan in Judo is NOT an advanced rank, but does(should) represent fundamental knowledge of essential basics. A black belt in Judo (shodan) should be a lot better at throwing than a BJJ purple belt, and a BJJ purple belt would be better at groundwork from what I understand.
Ben R.
"Damn, I don't want to be promoted though based on how I compete with the judoka above me but how much judo I actually know. I know a lot a wrestlers that can give some jiu-jitsu guys hard time but this doesn't mean they should be promoted in jiujitsu. Do I make sense? "
Yes, you are making sense. You can take a good wrestler who is athletic and in shape, and who has competed a lot, and he can give a lot of judoka and bjj'ists a hard time, especially if he is working with relatively inexperienced, unathletic, or poorly/average conditioned athletes in either Judo or BJJ.
Ben R.
Chzog,
My experience with most shodans from Japan is similar to yours. In fact, I've had two different Japanese instructors tell me that shodan from Japan is roughly equivalent to sankyu in the USA. Of course, there are exceptions!
Ben R.
Thanks Ben for all your insight! I've heard something mentioned about an injury you have so good luck with that.
An injury? I did reinjure an old groin pull, but I didn't mention it until now.
Thanks,
Ben R.
i have more modest goals....... how long does it take to get a brown belt in judo?
the average kid who begins judo at age 10. will be a BB by the time s/he is 19-20.
the kids wih higher ability levels will be a BB by the time they are 16.
the average 20-30 something beginner will be a BB within 5 to 7 years. depending on frequency of competition and training.
now.. the highly skilled athlete with a wreslting background or bjj background who comes into a dojo and wants to learn judo for competition... well, its hard to say.. if the guy is able to beat all the local fellas hands down then you take him to a bigger tournament and see how he does. if he wins that then promote him-- even if he only does morote gari becuase well, THATS JUDO.
the only case in which that fella should be getting a BB within 2 years is if you are taking his ass to the US Open after he did really well at the nationals and got himself on the point roster. sht of that, he sint that good and can wait a bit.
-resnick
I started Judo in 2000, Took about a total of 1 years off between 2000 and now (December 2003) Due to night school, work, and business.
I have enter about 7 Tournament so far, including 1 BJJ. Came in 1st in my last judo tournament. ( As an orange belt)
Couldn't train due to tear shoulder muscle (2 months sitting the bench, but still came to class and video tape the class)
And Recently Fracture Instep (2 months of just Ne Waza, Ground Work) Didn't miss class, In Novemeber, got my brown belt.
Last week started learning the kata for black belt. In Ontario, I have to wait 2 years between my brown belt and my black belt. (I may be wrong )
Just started a aubmission wrestling club with my instructor to improve my take down game and my ground control.(I am doing all the organization and business side of the partnership)
http://www.zeerebel.com/mma/submissionwrestling.htm
I am pretty confident that at this rate I can get my black belt.
I train an average of 5 days a week, at least 1 day for weight, 2 days of judo, and 2 days of bjj style of ground work. 1-2 days of Thai Boxing Bag Works
So I think you have a passion for something, it doesn't take long to reach your goal.
For me I enjoy the journey more than anything else.
In Canada it definitely seems to take about 6 years on average for adults, so I never even got close before moving ;o)
In Japan, it IS a lot shorter (hell, if I started back up today, I could possibly get it in a year (2 at most)).
Since Judo Canada is under the Kodokan my rank would be accepted, but it would be kinda embarassing if I couldn't hold my own against the blue and brown belts (2nd and 1st kyu) back home.
In Japan, a 4th degree black belt is considered a teaching rank. By the time a person is 4th degree here, they will be as good (and have a lot of time in the art) as a 4th degree black belt back home (more guys to train with, so it is easier to get better and better...like training folkstyle wrestling in Iowa vs. Hawaii). However 1-3 will vary a lot in skill because a lot of those guys will be younglings who are winning tournaments, etc. and will they will be getting their black belt (1st dan) as fast as possible to fight against as many people as possible (and attend as many black belt practices as possible). Any promotion after that will be based on winning (ie. getting 2nd and 3rd).
You have to keep in mind that with the number of practitioners here, the idea of a black belt meaning a lot doesn't really exist. It is just there to make sure that the rookies aren't hurt by the advanced guys by matching them up inappropriately.
Ideally (to me, when I get one in 10 years ;o), a black belt means that I can do all of the major throws compentently, can demonstrate how to set-up all of the major submissions, demonstate the 1st kata, have sound self-defense training, and can compete on the provincial level against other black belts with 3 or 4 moves clearly showing through when I compete (grip fighting to get them, having a coherent strategy, etc.).
The kodokan has a 1 year first dan program for foreign students. 3 months general program and 9 months special program for 1 st dan. Go to there web page to see it.
Yeah, Ryan Bow got his blackbelt at the kodokan in about that much time.
Dogmeat, the US Open is a the highest level Judo competition in the USA, and is an international level event. The average shodan would do poorly there, in fact, could not enter unless they were a elite/ranked athlete (for the USA).
Josh is talking about a guy who was able to get elite level points (placing at senior nationals, doing well, or placing at another point event in the USA), and he competes at the US Open and does well (maybe not winning a medal, but doing well). In that case, I think Josh believes a person with that level of performance, even in just 2 years of Judo, should be a shodan.
Otherwise, not.
Ben R.