It seems to me that boxers don't all stand the same way. I wonder what the differences are? I see some with a tighter stance, feet closer together, front pointed forward, rear out or turning forward. I see some with a much wider stance, both feet turned 45 degrees or so to the rear hand direction (i.e., right for a lefty). Your thoughts?
there is really only orthodox and unorthodox. fighters then tweak those 2 stances to what fits them, imo
Hm. Orthodox and unorthodox, what's the difference?
Ogami:
Orthodox is typical for a right handed fighter w/ his left foot forward and Unorthodox is the reverse.
Samurai Clown is very correct when he says it is tweaked. Due to the coach's preference & the fighter's preference.
A fighter's height, weight, physical power, speed, accuracy, natural ability, stylistic preference, etc. will dictate how he alters or even fluctuates his stances.
The major differences beyond the obvious like where a fighter's hands are (using Moore's Crab shell? Philly Shell, Hands up high, etc.) and how tall he stands or whether he crouches would be foot placement.
Since your feet are the ROOTS, everything snowballs from there on up. Some people have a very thin target area because their rear foot is nearly behind their lead. This great for the long range, in-and-out, fencing type fighters. It is primarily lead hand based and nullifies a lot of what your rear hand can do. However, some fighters utilize squaring up more as the range compresses.
From there, you can swing your foot placement in an arc all the way until you are squared up and everywhere in between. Typically, the closer you get, the more square you are, all the way into the clinch. This brings both hands at full power into play, HOWEVER offers more targets for you opponent to hit.
The old Tyson did this in a highly effective manner. He was so offensive that it didn't matter that he presented a larger target, his opponent's never got any shots off.
Many of the old time fighters used the crouch, most notably Jack Dempsey. They felt they could square up, yet present a smaller target than they would be if standing tall.
A boxer's frame may dictate to a coach how he should place his feet and square up. Take a frame like Lennox Lewis and force him to fight inside and you would not be optimizing his frame. Make David Tua a target shooter and long range fighter and the same would be true.
Some thoughts. Hopefully someone will come along and say it more succintly.
I thank you for the very good post. As I may have mentioned I come from a kickboxing background myself and never learned "pure" boxing. What about turning to the side like that? I mean a lot of times I see fighters that have their left foot pointed about 30 degrees to the right (from orthodox) and their right foot almost 90 degrees.
"I mean a lot of times I see fighters that have their left foot pointed about 30 degrees to the right (from orthodox) and their right foot almost 90 degrees. "
I get a LOT of Kickboxers that are converting in my gym. This is a COMMON problem and one that I have to work HARD on. Granted some people can get away w/ it for a while it will catch up w/ you. It's the foot in the bucket syndrome. It virtually shuts down anything meaningful you can do w/ your rear hand.
It's GREAT for kickboxing, where you can do a lot of fencing with your leads and even some spinning techs. but IMO horrible for Boxing or MMA. Even CroCop has modified his stance to be more square.
Ausgepicht - Can you elaborate on Moore's Crab Shell, Philly Shell and any others?
Right, Aus, what I'm saying is I see BOXERS with this side stance, not kickboxers. Kickboxers in my experience tend to be more square because they don't want to bring their rear leg from so far behind.
A lot of the lightweight i the Olympics had this side stance, for example. Common? Lemme see if I can find some pics.
These two, for example, especially the guy in the red.
http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/Boxing.jpg
This is more of a square stance:
http://www.movinghere.org.uk/gallery/sport/images/boxing.jpg
Iron Monkey:
A shell is a term for anytime you use your guard (hand & forearm) positioning to ward/block/absorb/deflect punches (or kicks, elbows, and knees if Muay Thai or MMA). A guard is your hand & forearm positioning and a shell is SPECIFIC to the absorbing and blocking as opposed to other boxing tactics like evasion and parrying.
The Mongoose was the most popular fighter known to use a "Crab Shell", Foreman being another. It's basically wrapping your forearms around your body, using your arms and shoulders to deflect or absorb punches.
You can raise and lower it as needed.
The Philly shell is when your lead arm is hanging real low. This goes against Boxing 101, but the Philly fighters get away with it on a consistent basis. James Toney epitomizes it.
There is also the "Peek-a-Boo" shell that Mike Tyson (not the first) utilized. The hands on your head, and lots of side to side movement.
Rodney King's Crazy Monkey is another shell that is VERY effective.
Many shells appear to be just holding your hands in certain places, but anyone who uses these knows that it is not so simple. Often it is paired with going in an out of evasive and parrying, as well as cycling different defensive methods to keep your opponent on his toes.
They are not simply holding your hands in certain places, because if youstart to use them intraining you will see how much work goes into them.
For years, I was particularly fond of the Philly shell, which I still use quite a bit, but Rodney's Crazy Monkey has taken th forefront now.
There are others, I'm sure...if I remember I'll post them later.
Ogami:
You see some Boxers do this because they are long range fighters. Floyd Mayweather uses this a lot, and his jab is pretty amazing.
As I mentioned, it is for lead hand "fencers" and in Olympic boxing where you just have to touch to get a point (as opposed to hitting with hard power to get a KO) it is more economical to use the nearest weapon to hit the nearest target to pile up points, as well as thin your body to present lesser of a target.
I'm NOT saying they use it exclusively, they may square up as the range compresses.
The picture of the Olympic fighter in red is exactly what we are talking about. You think Ted Lewis' stance is square? It's not very IMO. He has a typical stance of the old time fighters: crouched and staggered but not side on or square.
Ausgepicht - Great post! Thanks. It appears from your descriptions that I was taught something similar to the crab shell and philly shell but those names weren't used. Actually I can't seem to recall any names used, hmm...
For the Philly shell, having the lead arm hanging low allows one to land punches from unpredicatble angles. Defence I was taught to utilise shoulder roll with elbow for defence. Was taught to use this for long range play.
When in-close I was taught to transition to something like the crab shell, except its at a slight angle so that my elbow of my lead arm is kinda sticking out slightly to try and catch the opponent's strikes. Also to try and butt the opponent to create some space.
There was almost no mid range game for me. It was either long range or very short range.
Do these sound like how the philly shell and crab shell are normally used?
Your Philly shell is point on. Also the low hand makes an almost irresistable target for some fighters, which is actually just setting them up. You can actually get a nice swing hook from a low left hand.
The Crab shell is similar but you have your forearms almost horizontal. That slight angle you use is also typical for dirty boxing (or "clean" Filipino boxing).
"There was almost no mid range game for me. It was either long range or very short range. "
Instinct taught you a smart game. At long range you have some time to see the punches coming, at close range you can "feel" the punches coming or can stuff them, but in the middle rangethe hands are faster than the eye. This is where Rodney's Crazy Monkey shell kicks in BEAUTIFULLY.
Good posts, Aus, thanks. Got a good pick of a square stance? Who would we Google image search for such a stance?
Could someone please explain what the crazy monkey style is all about?
another great thread
Hungry tiger:
Head over to the JKD folder and there will be plenty of guys to help you out.