Any takes on this guys?
My own strategy would be some kind of jab , (he parries), to double leg tackle to mount. Finish from mount if possible as its always better to be on top of a boxer, especially one that can break your teeth.
My main gripe with this is if teh boxer is charging at you with a jab, cross using momentum, and you try to double leg, you'd have to do some wrestling and dump him off to the side, which unfortunately uses a lot of strength. It might be ok when the boxer is your size, but if he is double your size, good luck.
Any ways how to approach this scenario using little to no strength. Also I'm assuming the boxer isn't very skilled on the ground like a traditional MMA boxer would be.
Any help appreciated from Bolo and others.
Thank you
grappler 2010
Watch UFC 1 and the Gracie JJ In Action videos. That question was answered long ago.
BoloWhen I watched UFC 1 the only boxer in there was Art Jimmerson, and he didn't commit with momentum to attacking Royce with boxing. Instead he stayed away and Royce just closed the distance and tackled him.
We've never seen what happened when a "smaller weaker" juijitsu player double leg tackles a bigger stronger boxer whose charging at him with momentum in his punches.
If you watch most other boxing matches against juijitsu if the juijitsu player upper body clinches the boxer he is sure to get smashed with uppercuts. Taking the back of a boxer is not very easy as anyone with common sense will "turn into you" as opposed to letting you get behind them as you go for their back.
The only other solution is dropping to guard,and unless your a royce gracie you really don't want to be in that position against an awesome striker.
G2010
If you want to effectively take an opponent down with the least effort, then you need to take some time in studying wrestling or judo. Unless a BJJ instructor has specifically studied one or both of those arts, the BJJ takedowns/throws are simply waterdown technically imperfect versions of techniques from those arts.
Bolo said "BJJ takedowns/throws are simply waterdown technically imperfect versions of techniques from those arts."
You know I recently got alot of heat when I essentially made the same point on the Bjj forum.
Some people actually had the nerve (in my opinion) to critique a so-called video Bjj instructor's takedown skills. I personally felt this instructors takedowns were no worse (or better) than what other legit Bjj instructors teach. In fact I felt the quality of this instructors was more or less the same as any other Bjj instructor.
I felt it was extremely hypocritical for any Bjj instructor, who doesn't have a background in Judo or wrestling to critique or criticize another so-called Bjj's instructors takedowns.
Grappler2010 - Any takes on this guys?
My own strategy would be some kind of jab , (he parries),
This is not what would happen. I have plenty of experience being the grappler who was fighting guys with much better striking. Every time I threw out a punch I'd be getting hit, because they were much better. Trying to jab a boxer will work as well as trying to take down a wrestler or choke a BJJer.
to double leg tackle to mount.
This part isn't bad. Just forget about throwing the jab first. You'll have a better chance of not being KOd or have a broken nose while you're going in for the double.
My main gripe with this is if teh boxer is charging at you with a jab, cross using momentum,
I've never met a boxer who did that.
Any ways how to approach this scenario using little to no strength.
This depends entirely on your definition of little and no strength.
m.g - Bolo said "BJJ takedowns/throws are simply waterdown technically imperfect versions of techniques from those arts."
You know I recently got alot of heat when I essentially made the same point on the Bjj forum.
Some people actually had the nerve (in my opinion) to critique a so-called video Bjj instructor's takedown skills. I personally felt this instructors takedowns were no worse (or better) than what other legit Bjj instructors teach. In fact I felt the quality of this instructors was more or less the same as any other Bjj instructor.
I felt it was extremely hypocritical for any Bjj instructor, who doesn't have a background in Judo or wrestling to critique or criticize another so-called Bjj's instructors takedowns.
I'm not good at striking. At all. I can recognise shitty striking though when I see a video of someone trying to box that looks like me when I try to box. It's not hypocritical for me to say said person sucks at striking, simply because I do too.
Laques.
I kinda agree with you about skipping the jab. When Royce fought Keith Hackney he tried the double leg shoot twice (without throwing a punch) before changing his strategy. When he fought shamrock (2nd time) he threw a jab and got clocked right in the eye. So I kinda understand your strategy. Then again if you try to double leg a defensive boxer he will "be ready and waiting" for you to attack and will be ready to counter easily. So what would you do then?
BTW from gracie university I got the following reply:
Q. Sometimes when executing a double leg takedown against a good striker (eg boxer) they will use momentum and drive towards me with jabs and crosses. If I try to double leg tackle them will land fully over me making it hard for me to go to guard. As a result I will have to lift them up and dump them to the side similar to what a wrestler would do. This is not possible if they are much bigger than me. What should I do?
GC (7/31/2009 11:00 AM)
A. This sounds like a timing, sensitivity, and reflex issue. If the bad guy is running over you, then pull guard.
Gracie Academy 1
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The gracies say guard is still the best option as its easily to nullify a boxer's punches on the ground that standing up (their specialty) and risking a knockout.
g2010
Unless the striker has extensively studied wrestling takedown defenses, I do not think a pure boxer can stop the takedown of a good wrestler.
In addition, the fact that you keep thinking that you need to lift someone off the ground when doing a double leg shows that your knowledge of wrestling is quite limited. If you want to learn how to do a double leg correctly and how to handle resistance with least effort, study wrestling. If your goal is to be able to take people down easily, you need to study wrestling or judo, don't try to take shortcuts.
"Unless the striker has extensively studied wrestling takedown defenses, I do not think a pure boxer can stop the takedown of a good wrestler." --Bolo
Wait a sec now. I'm talking in NHB. Pure wrestlers have moves that are battle tested in grappling events, not MMA. So I would evidently have to study MMA wrestling not wrestling.
Also The Gracie think that guard is better than pure wrestling against a boxer (if he's charging), because #1 they are experts at nullifying strikes (The G. Combative program doesn't dish out strikes much, but it does do a fantatic job on strike defense), and #2 you can always get to mount from guard, as a good pure boxer will rarely have good balance on the ground.
I can see how MMA would incorporate better wrestling techniques than pure wrestling since it focuses on the strike game, but then again even MMA nowadays is all about weight divisions, which have no place in a real street fight.
g2010
Grappler2010,
what is yout point and where are you going with this ridiculous thread?
Grappler2010 - Laques.
I kinda agree with you about skipping the jab. When Royce fought Keith Hackney he tried the double leg shoot twice (without throwing a punch) before changing his strategy. When he fought shamrock (2nd time) he threw a jab and got clocked right in the eye. So I kinda understand your strategy. Then again if you try to double leg a defensive boxer he will "be ready and waiting" for you to attack and will be ready to counter easily. So what would you do then?
Wait. I was fighting a defensive boxer and I had to circle around and wait about 15 minutes before I did my first shot.
BTW from gracie university I got the following reply:
Q. Sometimes when executing a double leg takedown against a good striker (eg boxer) they will use momentum and drive towards me with jabs and crosses. If I try to double leg tackle them will land fully over me making it hard for me to go to guard. As a result I will have to lift them up and dump them to the side similar to what a wrestler would do. This is not possible if they are much bigger than me. What should I do?
GC (7/31/2009 11:00 AM)
A. This sounds like a timing, sensitivity, and reflex issue. If the bad guy is running over you, then pull guard.
Gracie Academy 1
--------------------------------------------------------
The gracies say guard is still the best option as its easily to nullify a boxer's punches on the ground that standing up (their specialty) and risking a knockout.
g2010
The first time I've seen this happen is in the 2nd Wanderlei Silva/Ricardo Arona fight. I would suspect if someone is coming at you like that they are probably familiar enough with the ground game that you'll be in some serious trouble if you pull guard. If your guard game is really good you might be ok, but I would think the solution to this problem is to work on your wrestling. If you can't find a wrestling school then Judo. Some BJJ programs go over takedowns very well, but more likely than not you'll have to branch out.
Running forward with momentum strikes me as something a brawler would do, or a striker with wrestling. It would be very unusual for a pure boxer to do this.
Depending on how good your tani otoshi is you could work on that. If someone has forward momentum and is leaning forward then you end up on top with a back ride rather than on bottom with hooks in.
Grappler2010 - "Unless the striker has extensively studied wrestling takedown defenses, I do not think a pure boxer can stop the takedown of a good wrestler." --Bolo
Wait a sec now. I'm talking in NHB. Pure wrestlers have moves that are battle tested in grappling events, not MMA. So I would evidently have to study MMA wrestling not wrestling.
The primary concern people have with using wrestling takedowns in an NHB setting is getting caught in a guillotine. A good wrestling takedown with the head up and grinding the torso (the cause of cauliflower ear among wrestlers who don't wear headgear) will not get you caught in a guillotine. Someone might be able to get a weak front headlock on you, but a good wrestler will be able to deal with this. The people who get caught in guillotines doing double legs are people who haven't actually studied wrestling and just shoot in with what they think is a double leg.
Also The Gracie think that guard is better than pure wrestling against a boxer (if he's charging),
This depends on which Gracies you're talking about. The reason that for them the guard would be the option is that they don't have good takedowns, and if you can't take your opponent down and end up on top then pulling guard is the best option if you're only skilled at finishing the fight with submissions on the ground. Training wrestling on top of your BJJ will give you much more certainty of getting the takedown and will allow you to work your top game (like Rickson, who competed and won in wrestling due to his wrestling experience on top of his BJJ experience) rather than having to rely on pulling guard so much.
because #1 they are experts at nullifying strikes (The G. Combative program doesn't dish out strikes much, but it does do a fantatic job on strike defense),
They're far from experts at nullifying strikes. Yes the program does address strikes, and for this it is good, but the experts at nullifying strikes are boxers and kickboxers with grappling experience.
and #2 you can always get to mount from guard, as a good pure boxer will rarely have good balance on the ground.
Anyone you have to pull guard on because you can't take them down with a double has the potential to have the balance to stay on top and not be swept. This is no guarantee, as I have done what you suggest - pull guard against someone I couldn't take down and sweep them, but I have also pulled guard on people I couldn't sweep.
I can see how MMA would incorporate better wrestling techniques than pure wrestling since it focuses on the strike game, but then again even MMA nowadays is all about weight divisions, which have no place in a real street fight.
MMA doesn't incorporate better wrestling techniques than pure wrestling, it's just selective about which wrestling techniques are used. Just as it doesn't use better boxing or BJJ than pure boxing or pure BJJ, it just relies on the smaller selection of techniques and strategies that are still valid in an MMA context. Not all MMA has weight classes either, particularly in Japan and you consistently see smaller fighters beating much larger fighters on account of their superior wrestling and ability to nullify their opponent's size advantage by taking them down and ending up on top.
If the guy doesn't have any wrestling experience, then this is an absurdly easy scenario, unless you are scared to death of getting hit. His hips will he ready for the taking if you clinch, body lock and outside trip is what I like, but really if he has no wrestling, unless you're completely horrible, should be an easy takedown.