How to make chi sau/hubud work

So far i have used it to beat a washington state high school wrestling champion, blue belt machado guy, and a golden gloves champ. I destroyed them all. I have yet to fight a pro, but that will change within a year. Non of the guys i mentioned above could be called "terrible"

If you meet Matt or some of his students your attitude will change real quick.

Wiekus

The only way you can make this stuff work in sparring is to have an opponent who is terrible. There may be some elements that you can say you are able to "pull off" but I gaurantee that there are better ones in Greco or even Judo. Just because Bruce may have done the basic form dosen't mean he got ANY attributes from it. He may have just done it because it relaxed him.

"I never thought about doing it in other ranges, also I like your method of adding things. "

You're welcome. But credit where credit's due bro...you really have the SBG guys to thank for that. I'm just passing on the method.

Kenwingjitsu, those are some pretty good ideas. I have been doing something similar but only at long range. Jab vs Jab, Jab vs cross, straight punches vs hooks, punch vs kick ect. I never thought about doing it in other ranges, also I like your method of adding things. I wasn't really adding on, but running through techniques and using them against techs that i thought would develop good attributes. I'm definetly going to have to try and add in this method to my training program, thanks for your advice.

What's up Steve G!!! How is the school going? I think what you say is true and that is exactly my point, though it may not have been expressed very well. I think Eddie's and Stevie's wing chun has made everything they do better from bjj to thai to kali. Whatever we are training, whenever you touch them you can feel the wing chun structure dominating. That being said, my main point is this; a pure wing chun guy will never convince a pure bjj guy, thaiboxer, wrestler, etc. that wing chun is worth anything 1)Because they both are coming from completely different ends of the specturm with different points of view, 2)Because the wing chun guy has most likely never fought before so the other guy thinks he's full of crap, and 3)Because the wing chun guy would probably misrepresent good wing chun by including in his explanations talks of chi and mysticism because that is how the info was misrepresented to him. This conversation would go nowhere. On the other hand, the bjj, wrestling, thai guy, etc. may be more willing to accept wing chun if "one of his own" (so to speak) professed to the effectiveness of wing chun. That is why I brought up Eddie and Stevie. They are both hard core bjj and thai guys who spar and who have been in many real fights in their lives, and despite their love for these systems and training methods, they still claim wing chun to be superior. There seems to be a reason for this other than that they are collectors of technique who want to demonstrate only and not put their egos on the line by sparring. I know this is not the case because they spar every bjj class with the students and with us in thai as well. Could the reason be that wing chun does have alot to offer when trained properly and this is why they advocate it? At least I think so. I do think that for the most part everyone's analysis of people who do complex trapping and demonstrations and "dead patterns" is correct; that they do it only because that is what they can show off and they don't have to actually put their egos on the line and possibly get embarrassed by sparring in front of everyone. Because of the way wing chun is mainly represented, this actually is the case, but I don't think that goes against the valitidy of wing chun. Among martial artists, wing chun is the most popular kung-fu system in the world. But what are most of these people who call themselves teaching wing chun actually teaching? Most of the time, it ain't wing chun. Like I said before, this argument may not convince many people becuase it is something that you just have to feel. However, by using the example of my two instructors who actually do train "alive" but who also value wing chun above all, I hope to at least put some idea in everyone's head that good wing chun can actually be a great fighting system when trained properly; chi sao and all.

C.J.

Matt, fook sau, tan sau, and bong sau are not arm positions/techniques. This is how they are taught to beginners as a first step. tan,fook, and bong are actaully principles. It is easiest to learn the principles with your arms in these positions but after that step you learn to apply these principles no matter what positions your arms are in. I do sometimes use tan,fook,bong in sparring but very rarely. Maybe 1/4 of my sparring sessions or less will actually have me in one of those positions(for a spilt second), but i am allways applying the principles of them in everything i do.

re-read the post. You don't understand the distiction. You made an analogy to hitting a bag, or practicing an armbar that is not correct.

Calbert, I apreciate your post, and understand your point. You have always written good posts. However, your analogy points to the problem, not the solution.

The problem is that well known Instructors, who do have other skills, still teach dead patterns. If they did not, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Because they still advocate it doesn't make it correct. If Tito Ortiz stated he used his Tai Chi training in MMA, it would not make Tai Chi more valid. again, that is domesticated primate thinking. Because someone famous, or talented in other fields says something is usefull does not make it so. If it did everyone in JKD would be doing animal forms, and chi kung meditation.

-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

Aldurr, chi sao is not suppose to increase your sparring ability. Its a way of learning a set of techniques and priciples. Like hitting the heavy bag, it won't make you a good boxer. Like doing lots of armbars on a willing opponent, it won't make you a good grappler. Sparring makes you a better boxer, hitting the heavy bag can lead to better punches while sparring. Rolling makes you a better grappler, armbars on a willing opponent can lead to being able to get armbars while rolling. Chi sao is no magic pill, the techniques and principles learned must be practiced in sparring for many many hours just like any other technique. And then there's the whole fact that you must learn proper structure to make it work. You must do chi sao correctly and spar ALLOT. Just like everything else. Its all about sparring with it. And its all about pressure to get the proper technique.

Sovann, I assume you are talking about SBG? I would love to come spar with you guys. I'm still repairing my cardio at the moment but i'm going to have to take you up on that soon.

"Like hitting the heavy bag, it won't make you a
good boxer. Like doing lots of armbars on a willing opponent, it won't make you a good grappler. Sparring makes you a better boxer, hitting the heavy bag can lead to better punches while sparring."

You 'hit a bag' with the exact same 'form' and technique as you do when you spar. You do not have to 'modify' them in order to make them functional. If you did, then you are hitting the bag incorrectly, and any boxing coach would tell you so.

You 'practice an armbar' exactly as you would in a match. You do not want to gain repititions one way, and then when it comes time to spar, have to modify it. Again that would be counter productive, and any BJJ Coach will tell you so.

As such your analogy makes zero sense.

You will NEVER get into a real fight against a resisting opponent and bust out your fook sau, and ton sau. If you do you will quickly experience the realm known as 'KNOCKED OUT SAU'

Again, faulty logic, you cannot compare hitting a bag, or repeating an armbar to chi sau, chi sau is NOT sport/activity specific.

Your argument would only be logical if you relagated chi sau to the same place as a conditioning drill, ie: skipping rope, or lifting weights. However my point would be simply that you would be better off skipping rope, and lifting weights.

Why try so hard to find value in nonsense? *

(*see is he any good thread)

-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

Delaney,

The classes I go to are at Team Quest Combat club in Gresham. Greg Piper and Robert Follis teach the classes and are SBG coaches. I'm sure you would have a good time training there or at any of the SBG down here (Beaverton, Portland).

Delaney,

If you are ever down south in Portland sometime come by the gym, it'd be nice to train with you.

You might be interested in competing in the FCFF shows.
http://www.thefcff.com

Like I said. I do'nt want to trash anybody.
You have a right to your own opinion, I can tell you, for a fact, having been the "ref" for 25 odd NHB fights, no one using trapping, etc has lasted even more than a few seconds.
Infact we have even had to stop a few fights early, cos guts they had (they kept going back in), but braines, man.
This one dude got slammed with two elbows.
Eyelid closed over.
nose bleeding.
He could not even stand properly.
The other guy, a SBG convert, looked like he'd just got out of bed.
Use it, do'nt use it.
Neil Bastion

As someone who trains thai and bjj, I 100% agree that sparring and other resistence training is completely necessary in order to continually increase your skill level and it is sad that many JKD schools still do not understand this point. That being said, as a wing chun guy I feel that it is logically fallacious to group chi sau and the "death touch" in the same category. A good wing chun instructor will tell you that it is not chi that makes your techniques work, its physics. I don't blame anyone for making fun of wing chun though, because 90% of wing chun guys out there are sorry due to the fact that the information has been misrepresented to them. Most wing chun guys don't want to train, they just want to sit around in frog button uniforms, drink tea, talk chinese history, and philosophize (even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with philosophy :) Because of this misrepresentation, it is hard to convince other fighters of anything good about wing chun. I love to spar thai, bjj, and vale tudo and I have gotten alot from it and will continue to get alot from it. However, I feel as though I have gotten alot from wing chun aswell. I know that you guys will never be convinced because it is just something that you have to experience. The cheif instructor at my school is a brown belt in bjj under Pedro Sauer and a thai instructor. The head instructor at my school is a purple belt in bjj under Pedro Sauer and is also a thai instructor. They both spar regularly. Having grown up together in a rough neighborhood, both have them have been in many, shall we say, "self-defense situations." Both of them will tell you that fighting as they did was stupid and they are not proud of it, however, they both have said that despite their other abilities, their wing chun is what always came through for them in any of their fighting situations. I'm not trying to use an argument from authority because that is logically fallacious as well, but I think this point just illustrates that maybe it should be considered that good wing chun (no mysticism) may have something very beneficial to offer a fighter. What do you guys think?

C.J.

Man, you sure use big words Calbert!

However, let us admit that Eddie Camden and Steve "Wild Man" Broughman are a few of small number of individuals who can use Wing Chun in application. I personally think their Wing Chun training under Sifu Francis Fong helped them develop their skills in BJJ, which are top notch. I have rolled with both, and they are something else!

Steve

Okay, cross reference this thread to "..is this guy any GOOD?" Interesting, thanks.

DeLaney, you mentioned training with Munson and Hallman up in Seattle. Both of those guys have come down to train at the Portland Straight Blast Gym and Matt. They are both very tough guys and very talented as well. they would not waste their time doing this if there wasn't a good reason to come down. We train and train with pro fighters all the time. I don't want to be disrespectful but to you but the logic and examples you have used are faulty as Matt pointed out. You can bet that ANY form of Chi Sau will not be used by theses guys nor sucessfully used against them. Can you elaborate on the "principals" you use from Tan Sau and Fok Sau? I think you'll find that theses same principals are better addressed in other arts and that is the point. Chi sau is a clinch range drill where two people are in contact. Wing Chun does not specialize in this as much as Greco or Judo. My point is that at SBG we try to find the arts that are the best in the world at each range or set of circumstances. We use boxing for our hand techniques because there is no better delivery system for the hands. If there were the boxers would use it because of the money involved. All they can do is hit with the hands. We use low line kicking from MT and Savate so that we have a "shoe" art kicking ability and a "shoeless" delivery system as well. We use wrestling for take downs because that is all they do day after day. That is their speciality. We use Greco for hand fighting and clinch because all they can do is attack from the waist up therefore they are the best in the world at dealing with presure and contact while standing. They practice at the olympic level hour after hour of just these techniques. Once we hit the ground it is BJJ all the way. You can argue for other arts but overall BJJ is the most alive and technical art available for the ground. Blending the concepts, techniques and ranges gives us a complete fighting system. It is not really cross training but a logical compilation of techniques based on range or availability. Everything we do is tactile and performance based. We don't depend on theory we actually try evrything to see if we can make it work against our own tough guys. If it can't be used we discard it and go on. Our approach is constantly changing as we evolve so there is no stagnation. To do a dead pattern like Chi Sau just because Bruce did or some guy 500 years ago did is crazy. You may have had some feeling of sucess with trying your principals but I gaurantee there is a better way to do the same things if you continue to explore.
On that I believe we've beat this horse to death! If you don't get it now you never will and that's O.K. Not everyone is meant to be on the cutting edge or even a good fighter. If we all had a million bucks what would it be worth? Steve Boyd

Paul, your awake!

-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com

"""If you do you will quickly experience the realm
known as 'KNOCKED OUT SAU' """

Matt,

You Rock!

Demi (I wanna rock n roll all night and party
everyday) Barbito

PS - When I say party it's like a kids birthday party
or an office party or a fancy dinner party.

Oh looky! This thread's still......alive. It's alive!

Post # 50!