thefightingsheep - I figured people would be giving GSP too much credit, but it looks like he's not getting any at all. A guy like Sherk who was a HS wrestler isn't going to have the type of experience wrestling against Olympic/international opponents like GSP supposedly has.
And yes, there are aspects of wrestling other than takedowns, but we've seen GSP's strength and speed advantage in standard wrestling positions and a lot of ground wrestling comes down to the basics of body control and strength. If he dominates with takedowns he wins the first round and the round where he's on top (sacrificing 1 point for an escape and gaining 2 for any takedown). Do you think it will be that difficult for him to stand up and escape--something most evenly matched wrestler do quite easily--in the 2nd round? Do you think he gets pinned by weaker, slower guys like Sherk during that period?
Watching his repeated takedowns of Fitch, his full points throw of Hughes from 50/50 and his ability to basically ride Frank Trigg from top positions for several minutes I have to think he would at least have a chance against the weaker guys on that list (Sherk and Fitch). None of them have been approached about trying out for the Olympics as GSP supposedly has.
lol There's so much fail in this post I don't know where to start.
thefightingsheep - I figured people would be giving GSP too much credit, but it looks like he's not getting any at all. A guy like Sherk who was a HS wrestler isn't going to have the type of experience wrestling against Olympic/international opponents like GSP supposedly has.
And yes, there are aspects of wrestling other than takedowns, but we've seen GSP's strength and speed advantage in standard wrestling positions and a lot of ground wrestling comes down to the basics of body control and strength. If he dominates with takedowns he wins the first round and the round where he's on top (sacrificing 1 point for an escape and gaining 2 for any takedown). Do you think it will be that difficult for him to stand up and escape--something most evenly matched wrestler do quite easily--in the 2nd round? Do you think he gets pinned by weaker, slower guys like Sherk during that period?
Watching his repeated takedowns of Fitch, his full points throw of Hughes from 50/50 and his ability to basically ride Frank Trigg from top positions for several minutes I have to think he would at least have a chance against the weaker guys on that list (Sherk and Fitch). None of them have been approached about trying out for the Olympics as GSP supposedly has.
lol There's so much fail in this post I don't know where to start.
But just know... all your logic is failed.
Weird. And here I'm smarter than you and probably a more experienced wrestler...just no telling when someone is gong to be pwned!!! You rock dude.
buvaiser - lol at jon fitch being beaten in wrestling by gsp.
Do you think it's that outlandish? Fitch was a pretty decent college wrestler at Purdue, but wasn't an NCAA qualifier. GSP does train straight wrestling with guys competing internationally for Canada. GSP would have the TD advantage on the feet, so unless Fitch was very strong from top position, it's quite conceivable that GSP could win in a pure wrestling match. Since GSP trains freestyle rules, it's more likely he'd do better in that than folkstyle.
thefightingsheep - I figured people would be giving GSP too much credit, but it looks like he's not getting any at all. A guy like Sherk who was a HS wrestler isn't going to have the type of experience wrestling against Olympic/international opponents like GSP supposedly has.
And yes, there are aspects of wrestling other than takedowns, but we've seen GSP's strength and speed advantage in standard wrestling positions and a lot of ground wrestling comes down to the basics of body control and strength. If he dominates with takedowns he wins the first round and the round where he's on top (sacrificing 1 point for an escape and gaining 2 for any takedown). Do you think it will be that difficult for him to stand up and escape--something most evenly matched wrestler do quite easily--in the 2nd round? Do you think he gets pinned by weaker, slower guys like Sherk during that period?
Watching his repeated takedowns of Fitch, his full points throw of Hughes from 50/50 and his ability to basically ride Frank Trigg from top positions for several minutes I have to think he would at least have a chance against the weaker guys on that list (Sherk and Fitch). None of them have been approached about trying out for the Olympics as GSP supposedly has.
lol There's so much fail in this post I don't know where to start.
But just know... all your logic is failed.
Weird. And here I'm smarter than you and probably a more experienced wrestler...just no telling when someone is gong to be pwned!!! You rock dude.
It is weird that you say "Olympic opponents that GSP has..." without knowing the actual truth behind it.
And it IS very weird that being a wrestler you don't understand that without the fear of strikes to set up his take downs, Georges would be in a completely different world.
And lastly it is weirdest that you watch his MMA takedowns of people like Fitch and Kos and can't discern that the reason Georges is able to take them down so easily is because he sets up his TD's with strikes and feints of strikes.
Man, crazy how you're so much smarter than me and didn't calculate any of that into that gianormous brain of yours.
Pretty crazy that Georges out wrestled All-American Otto Olson in ADCC, including blasting him with a perfect double, without using strikes to set up anything (strikes being, you know, illegal in ADCC)
WaylonMercy - Let me explain this to you. GSP has trained wrestling positions. He knows takedowns, scrambles, and positioning. He has never wrestled. There is a lot more to wrestling then just being able to put someone on the mat. GSP would get cradled, tilted, ridden, ect. all things he doesn't practice because they do not translate to MMA. My analogy, Brock Lesnar has the tools to be a pro football player. Freak strong, fast, hits hard, and great athlete. BUT never played football beyond highschool. It takes more then knowing fundamentals of a sport to really excell at it.
Incorrect he made it to the final cut of the Minnesota Vikings
Here is Matt Hughes talking about GSP's wrestling ability
"I wasn't that surprised," said Hughes about St. Pierre outwrestling Koscheck in that match. "If they were to go on the mat in a wrestling match, Josh would kill him. But this is mixing of sports and Georges does that very well, and Josh doesn't do it as well." http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-gsphughes122407&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
JDolo - I never said GSP himself tried out for competition Jack, or Tom, I said the guys he has been training with have been. Do you think they only train in ways there that benefits GSP for MMA, while they themselves are training for Olympic level competion? GSP trains their way. The guy who runs the acad GSP trains with is Victor Zilberman from the old school Soviet system, now one of the top coaches in Canada, and he could give two shits about GSP finding ways to adapt wrestling to MMA, something else he could give two shits about. The same way when he walks into Howard Grants boxing gym and laces up the gloves with Joachime Alcine, he isn't throwing high kicks and elbows, he's doing it their way in their world, which you dont know what the fuck he knows or has picked up, or if he would be able to adapt or not. Chances are he would.
Chances are.
So after you admit that I don't know (and neither do you) you then proceed to state that chances are Georges St. Pierre would adapt. So you're not positive about that?
Awesome.
Here's what I know- GSP has never competed in any wrestling competition, ever. He has trained with some people from the Olympic team. Does that make Georges a world class wrestler? No. It does not. Georges is a very unique and intelligent person and I'm sure that if he dedicated himself to wrestling every day for many years (like Kos, Fitch, Hughes, and Sherk did) that Georges would be more than a force in wrestling.
However, he has not done that. While they may not be training Georges to wrestle for MMA, that is what Georges takes from it. We know this because it is evident in the way he mixes up his BJJ/Wrestling/Striking so fluidly and utilizes transitions so effectively.
I merely disagree with the statement that Georges would walk on to a wrestling mat and be able to compete with 4 people who dedicated every day of their lives for many years to wrestling and wrestling alone.
I have no problem saying that Georges would do well with experience and training, but, I refuse to believe that he's just going to walk through 4 pure wrestlers with years of experience.
JDolo - and in fact, everyone saying GSP wouldn't be able to out wrestle Kos, Hughes, etc, in pure wrestling, freestyle or folkstyle are the same people who were saying he wouldn't be to out wrestle them in mma, which heading into his fights with both GSP was given disadvantages to both and counted out for his chances of using his wrestling. I've seen it time and time again UG douchebags who think they know it all so far off, proven wrong at every turn, why would I ever have faith they would be right here in again counting GSP's abilities out in any aspect.
Predetermined to believe what you want without actually thinking about the facts.
For some reason, the college wrestling system causes people to be outright naive/dumb about wrestling. Everyone just thinks whoever got farther/won more championships/was all-american more is definitively the better wrestler and therefore beats whoever didn't win as much in college every time.
Just because Georges didn't wrestle in an American University doesn't mean he isn't incredible. Hell, you can see it when he fights. But his ability to outwrestle a Josh Koscheck doesn't compute with peoples' notion that college wrestling credentials = absolute ability in determining the better wrestler.
JDolo - I never said GSP himself tried out for competition Jack, or Tom, I said the guys he has been training with have been. Do you think they only train in ways there that benefits GSP for MMA, while they themselves are training for Olympic level competion? GSP trains their way. The guy who runs the acad GSP trains with is Victor Zilberman from the old school Soviet system, now one of the top coaches in Canada, and he could give two shits about GSP finding ways to adapt wrestling to MMA, something else he could give two shits about. The same way when he walks into Howard Grants boxing gym and laces up the gloves with Joachime Alcine, he isn't throwing high kicks and elbows, he's doing it their way in their world, which you dont know what the fuck he knows or has picked up, or if he would be able to adapt or not. Chances are he would.
Chances are.
So after you admit that I don't know (and neither do you) you then proceed to state that chances are Georges St. Pierre would adapt. So you're not positive about that?
Awesome.
Here's what I know- GSP has never competed in any wrestling competition, ever. He has trained with some people from the Olympic team. Does that make Georges a world class wrestler? No. It does not. Georges is a very unique and intelligent person and I'm sure that if he dedicated himself to wrestling every day for many years (like Kos, Fitch, Hughes, and Sherk did) that Georges would be more than a force in wrestling.
However, he has not done that. While they may not be training Georges to wrestle for MMA, that is what Georges takes from it. We know this because it is evident in the way he mixes up his BJJ/Wrestling/Striking so fluidly and utilizes transitions so effectively.
I merely disagree with the statement that Georges would walk on to a wrestling mat and be able to compete with 4 people who dedicated every day of their lives for many years to wrestling and wrestling alone.
I have no problem saying that Georges would do well with experience and training, but, I refuse to believe that he's just going to walk through 4 pure wrestlers with years of experience.
Except for Kos GSP is a far better athlete than all of those guys. I think he picks things up pretty quick. He beats Sherk handily, Hughes he beats due to age+athleticism, and I dunno about Fitch. Kos prolly beats him though.
JDolo - "So after you admit that I don't know (and neither do you) you then proceed to state that chances are Georges St. Pierre would adapt. So you're not positive about that?"
I say chances are. But if it were to happen, all my money would be on GSP. Certainly I dont try and project myself on being positive on an issue the way you yourself have ignorantly done, in a subject that is impossible to be completely positive on.
" However, he has not done that. While they may not be training Georges to wrestle for MMA, that is what Georges takes from it. "
Wrong. Thats what he shows he takes from it to the masses in the mma world. You really again have no idea what he truly takes from it. Georges has dedicated himself to training wrestling with guys who are in it for international goals and success for 10 years now. I think it's pretty naive to believe the only thing he takes from that training is what he shows in MMA.
lol ok. Believe whatever you want.
I'm positive there are facts to back up what I believe. I don't see how that's ignorant. It seems more ignorant to me to sit here and profess that GSP would beat 4 wrestlers in a wrestling tournament with wrestling rules and points without any competition experience.
But whatever, just because he's never competed in wrestling doesn't matter...
GSP was too busy trying to fight in a mans sport when he was 18, as oppsed to being some college prep frat boy. It's speaks nothing on GSP's abilities in the present time.
This is some trolling BS. College wrestling is one of the toughest training regimens on the planet, and you're cutting weight every week.
Tom, if you go back and watch GSP whizzer of out Kos's deep high single like he was wrestling a kid from the JV team, you might reconsider your position a bit. To do that against an NCAA champ is just unreal. With a takedown and cut strategy, GSP would have a shot. Also, I'm pretty sure Sherk never even placed at states in high school.
GSP was too busy trying to fight in a mans sport when he was 18, as oppsed to being some college prep frat boy. It's speaks nothing on GSP's abilities in the present time.
This is some trolling BS. College wrestling is one of the toughest training regimens on the planet, and you're cutting weight every week.
Tom, if you go back and watch GSP whizzer of out Kos's deep high single like he was wrestling a kid from the JV team, you might reconsider your position a bit. To do that against an NCAA champ is just unreal. With a takedown and cut strategy, GSP would have a shot. Also, I'm pretty sure Sherk never even placed at states in high school.
I'll look at it for sure, but, to be fair the statement "Georges would walk on to a wrestling mat without any experience in competition and beat 4 wrestlers who all have experience competing." seems foolish.
That's like saying I could train BJJ once or twice a week with BJJ black belts for 8 years and then walk on to a BJJ mat and beat 4 BJJ blackbelts, despite having never actually competed.
GSP was too busy trying to fight in a mans sport when he was 18, as oppsed to being some college prep frat boy. It's speaks nothing on GSP's abilities in the present time.
This is some trolling BS. College wrestling is one of the toughest training regimens on the planet, and you're cutting weight every week.
Tom, if you go back and watch GSP whizzer of out Kos's deep high single like he was wrestling a kid from the JV team, you might reconsider your position a bit. To do that against an NCAA champ is just unreal. With a takedown and cut strategy, GSP would have a shot. Also, I'm pretty sure Sherk never even placed at states in high school.
I'll look at it for sure, but, to be fair the statement "Georges would walk on to a wrestling mat without any experience in competition and beat 4 wrestlers who all have experience competing." seems foolish.
That's like saying I could train BJJ once or twice a week with BJJ black belts for 8 years and then walk on to a BJJ mat and beat 4 BJJ blackbelts, despite having never actually competed.
That doesn't sound ridiculous to any one else?
I think the assumption that was being made there was that GSP actually does well against those wrestlers which is why he was supposedly invited to compete on the canadian Olympic team.
When did Georges train folkstyle, because that is what this thread is about, isn't it? Isn't he training with freestyle wrestlers? It's a little different, isn't it?