I don't doubt that if you train 6 hours a day everyday and are a good athlete that you'll get better...BUT, where is the proof that he has taken his submissions to a new level? (cause his striking isn't really at a new level, is it?)
He lost to Penn in Jan 2004. He then was clearly outgrappled by Charuto in June 2004.
I'm thinking that pre-Penn Hughes could also submit Joe Riggs and pre-Penn Hughes DID rear naked choke Trigg as well. (that takes care of 2005)
Yeah, he got a great armbar on GSP, but other than that, where is the indication that his subs have gone to a new level?
Royce? (no disrespect to Riggs, Royce, etc. intended)
Matt CAN beat BJ by decision ala the Charuto fight. That's all...(and he probably will beat BJ by such a decision btw ;o(
(here's to hoping that one guy clearly shows that they are better, and yeah, I'm cheering for the guy that I think is more likely to go for the FINISH)
lol, are you seriously asking for "proof" that hughes has improved his
submissions since the last fight? you cited all the proof yourself. hughes
submitting GSP should have been proof enough, but he also sub'd riggs,
trigg, and nearly royce as well in that time frame. what more could you
possibly want as "proof" of a guy's submission ability?!? all that we can
judge a fighter's improvement by are his actual fights and hughes has
shown a drastic improvement in his submission skills over the last
several years.
Hughes is AWESOME, definitely top 3 at that weight, and I'd rank the fighters:
Hughes, GSP, and then Penn
So Penn is #3, I would rather Penn beat Hughes, but Hughes is better at MMA.
However, PRE 2004 Hughes WOULD ALSO have been good enough to submit GSP (Penn never had GSP on his back btw), Riggs, Royce, and Trigg (and he DID submit Trigg).
YEARS AGO Hughes did amazing at ADCC fighing up one or two weight classes!
Hughes' conditioning and his determination, etc. may have improved, but he was ALWAYS great at subs IMO. (well, not always, I'm sure in college he didn't know anyway, etc.)
If Hughes' subs jumped after his loss to Penn, what does Charuto's handling of him suggest? (and, yes, Charuto is not top 3 at 170)
"other than the fights he's won by submission since then, where's the evidence his subs have gotten better? that's your question?" Now that's both clever and funny.
The Charuto fight was over 2 years ago and Hughes had subbed (or beat the shit out of from rear mount) everybody he's faced since then. Also, Charuto didn't exactly "handle" him. He got all of 1 close submission attempt in the 1st and was neutralized in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
Dude, stop using the fight finder approach to fight analysis. If you've been watching him fight, you can tell his submission game is tighter than it was a few years ago. He even showed a decent guard against GSP.
the only way u would say his subs improved would be if he was pulling off triangles and oma platas etc... and i think he would much rather be on top getting kimuras or taking peoples back to get the RNC.
Taking Lyoto to a decision where he didn't look that bad (and Lyoto is an undefeated LHW) is better than most at 170 would do (perhaps Hughes, Lindland, GSP, etc. could do it too).
Taking GSP to decision when only Hughes has finished GSP (note that finish is the sole amazing performance by Hughes since Penn), and GSP has steamrolled Trigg and Sherk.
Both fights, although losing performances, suggest that Penn still has it.
But the point isn't that Penn hasn't improved, the point is that Hughes' subs aren't that much better than Pre-Penn IMO. (Hughes would also state that his striking is better, no?...but is it really?)
Hughes=one sole amazing submission since the Penn fight
Penn=same guy as before (that did beat Hughes)
ps. Hughes has never avenged a loss
pps. is one great sub enough to prove that you are much better at subs now when you were already great at them (Hughes did awesome at ADCC, didn't he?)
I figure BJ will win round 1 and 2, and Matt will win rounds 3-5 and get the decision and then everyone who doesn't understand how each round is judged seperately will bitch that BJ did more damage, yadda, yadda
Hughes has destroyed his last four opponents, and none of them even made it past the first round. And he used a different finishing technique on each of them: he beat Georges St. Pierre by armbar, Frank Trigg by rear naked choke, Joe Riggs by kimura, Royce Gracie by ground and pound TKO. Pound for Pound, Matt Hughes is probably the best mma fighter in the world, and I expect him to go right through Penn (though it will probably take more than one round).
And yes, Hughes' sub game has improved dramatically over the last couple of years.
"Yeah, he got a great armbar on GSP, but other than that, where is the indication that his subs have gone to a new level?"
This is like saying "Besides all this light out here, what indication do we have that the sun exists?" That win over GSP alone is enough to show Hughes has developed a really good submission game.
"This is like saying "Besides all this light out here, what indication do we have that the sun exists?" That win over GSP alone is enough to show Hughes has developed a really good submission game."
You're not the only person to say this, so please don't take what I'm about to say as a personal jab.
I'm not really too big of a fan of this arguement, simply because Hughes in his professional career has only had 1 chance (prior to this fight) to avenge a loss, and anyone who knows a thing about this sport knows that the Matt Hughes of today is 10 times better than the Matt Hughes who lost twice to Dennis Hallman in under a minute each fight.
I'm rooting for B.J. in this fight too, but I don't think he's going to plow through him like he did last time.