I DON'T want my BB in 3 years!

"Saulo did it in 3"

Thats awsome.

Robert Bentley and most of the rest of you are missing the point COMPLETELY.

If you have the willpower and desire necessary to dedicate yourself 100% to something, as well as the tools for the job, almost nothing is beyond your reach. The systems that Lloyd Irvin uses and teaches are the tools. All you need to supply is the desire.

Rhadi Ferguson tore his ACL and was back in the gym lifting the day afterwards because he desired to be and Olympian and the best Judoka he could be more than anything else. He knew that he could not allow his dream to be derailed by an injury. Would you have done the same?

Lloyd Irvin earned his BJJ black belt in 3.5 years despite being his own instructor for much of that time because he had the willpower to work hard, innovate, and develop systems that made him a phenomenal competitor and coach. Could you have done the same?

Mike Fowler gave up everything to move to a new state, work at a martial arts school, and train full-time. His mom wasn't paying his rent. He worked to pay the bills and he trained his ass off to become a 4-year black belt and one of the best American competitors with or without the gi. Would you sacrifice as much?

I quit school, gave up a scholarship, and moved to a new state to train with the best coaches and jiu-jitsu players that I could find. My parents don't pay my rent. I'm broke most of the time, but I don't care because all I want is to be the best jiu-jitsu player that I can be. I am fortunate to have sponors that allow me to travel everywhere (the same way that Fowler did), but they exist only because of the hard work of myself and Team Lloyd Irvin competitors that came before me. People didn't just decide to give Fowler, Rhadi, Easton, myself, and others money for the fun of it. They saw the work, they saw the results (because Lloyd Irvin knows how to market his competitors), and they supported us as a result of it. Could you be too broke to by anything nice if it meant that you could follow your dream?

The answer to the questions that I've posed should be, "yes." You/other people can do the things that members of our team and other teams have done. Most people simply lack the desire and conviction. And that's fine. However, it's transparently petty to attack a proven system of success because you have not seen similar results. Never allow someone else's limitations to confine you or limit your own ability to succeed.

Most of what I'm reading here is some disenfranchised individuals who are frustrated because they see others excelling. They prefer to attribute the success of others to talents that they themselves do not possess instead of hard work. This is a cop-out because if you have talents I don't then I can rationalize that it's not my fault that I don't see the same success that you do. However, if what you CHOOSE TO DO is all that separates us, then I feel inadequate because I don't have the drive to do what you do and earn the same degree of success. It may make me feel better to just criticize you instead of putting in the work you do because it's easier. Please...don't be that guy.

Hope I didn't step on too many toes :)

Good training,

Ryan Hall

www.ryangletv.com

OK - ryanhall, bjjprim8 - I hope the following sentence stays clearly in your mind because it is very clear that you have no idea what I'm talking about. Everyone else is getting it - but you continue to miss the point.

At NO STAGE did I ever deny that with enough dedication, hard work, and good coaching that you would get a black belt in 3-4 years.

That's right - all of your posts are actually debating something I HAVEN'T EVEN SAID.

So if in response to the following - or anything else I've posted on this thread you say something to the tune of "But Rob man, you don't get it - if you dedicate your life to jiu jitsu with a good coach you'll get a black belt very quickly" you will demonstrate only your problems with reading comprehension.

As I have ALWAYS stated on this thread - it's about the MARKETING CAMPAIGN.

I'll say it one more time just so you get it.

IT'S ABOUT THE DISHONEST MARKETING CAMPAIGN.

Is it clear now?

Now why did I say it's dishonest?

1) So far Lloyd has had a couple of really good students who have been able to dedicate all of their time to training and have obtained their goal. However - examples of people who have had NOTHING to do with Lloyd have also obtained these goals.

What's the unifying factor? Hard work and the means and desire to dedicate their lives to jiu jitsu.

No magic formula.

No special secrets

Just desire, hard work, intelligence and access to good coaching.

NONE OF WHICH ARE MENTIONED IN HIS ADS

2) "Means" isn't just referring to people who have a full time job - what about people who are just scraping by on a shit job where they have to put in a lot of hours?

What about the people who live in countries where there is little or rare access to a highly qualified and skilled coach?

3) His ads are deceptive in the EXACT SAME WAY that diet pills are deceptive.

"That's right - you too can lose weight effectively with X wonderpill!!!*"

-

-

-

*Must be taken in conjunction with a diet and exercise program


The only difference between that diet pill and Irwins program is that Irwins program doesn't have *

*Must dedicate life to training

*Must have regular access to high quality coaching

*Musn't have a family that would take away time away from training

*Mustn't have any other major responsibilities that cannot be dropped.

etc etc etc

So go ahead bjjprim8, ryanhall and quite possible Mike Fowler (who will come on here to defend "master") just repeat the mantra

"With enough dedication, hard work and desire - you can get your black belt!" and display yet again you don't get what I'm saying.

I have never disagreed with that statement.

I get it. I get the e-mails too..if just out of curiosity.

They don't really hit home with me though...for the reasons stated above. Been training for 9 years and not even a Brown Belt yet. But I am enjoying it.

I tell my guys that if it turns into a job and they are no longer enjoying the training, they should quit because I will be right behind them.

"*Must dedicate life to training

*Must have regular access to high quality coaching

*Musn't have a family that would take away time away from training

*Mustn't have any other major responsibilities that cannot be dropped. "

I would like to add
must not mind getting injured repeatedly and living with chronic pain

Saulo did it in 3, Mike Fowler did it in 4., Lloyd did it in 3.5, I did it in 8 (due to judo training).

True but bear in mind, of that list, only Saulo is a truely World Class BJJ player. there is a difference between the Shaolins, BJ Penns and Saulo's of this world and other players.

 think it's stupid that people advertise their BJJ school with things like "EARN YOUR BLACK BELT IN 3.5 YEARS" and all the marketing bullshit, offering people the fast track.

don't worry, Lloyd has never released the Grappling Blueprint around which those claims are based and probably never will. its just a marketing hook for his other merchandise.

Fowler took silver at the last Pan Ams as a black. He beat Igor Gracie. He beat Moraes (screwed). He is definitly world class.

...but if what if my friend sees that add and says to me: you have been doing it 8 yrs and are only a brown, wtf?!?

It is an unrealistic expectation. Based on the headline, he is marketing that anyone can do it while only 1-2% of the population actually can.

Bentley,

You really are ignorant! Do you know the inner workings of Master Lloyd's school so well that you know every promotion he has given?

I am also going to say anyone who reads those adds and isn't aware of the commitment and dedication it would take to achieve said goal in that short of time is rather ignorant.

There are actually formulas and that is something you are blindly missing here. You seem to think you know a whole lot about what is going on with everything, but the fact of the matter is it seems you are ignorant to what it takes to reach a high level of jiu jitsu. Just showing up isn't enough. Putting together the right game plan, learning and drilling transitional attacks etc. these are the things you don't get in most schools. I will be bold enough to say you don't get them in 99% of schools. What happens is the instructor leaves it up to his students and their own devices during their sparing to figure them out. Master Lloyd does not do that he has systems designed to implement them into your game which is something others aren't doing and increases your game 10 fold.

The bottom line is he is not saying anything dishonest. Everything he is saying is true. Everyone can achieve their BB in 3 1/2 years if the are willing to make the commitment and sacrifices necessary to achieve said goal. Will everyone be able to do that? No, they will not, but that doesn't make his statements untrue. He is marketing to those people that can and are willing. I guess that is something you are missing here. He has his right to advertise and he isn't stealing anyones money, or stating lies. He is simply promoting his program and anyone with half a brain (I guess that leaves you out) understands the commitment it would take and they for themselves have to come to the realization of that they either can, or can't do this program, and is it right for them.

" He is marketing to those people that can and are willing. I guess that is something you are missing here."

And your idiocy is simply confirmed by this laughable statement.

We have already determined that his claims can only be PRACTICALLY applied on a small percentage of the population.

He is a businessman who is obviously out to make money.

If he was targetting only those who have the resources to achieve that, he wouldn't make any money and he knows it.

Therefore (this is simple logic prim8, are you following?) - he is NOT targetting simply that select group of people. If he WAS - his ad would be different. Do we need to look at it again? Have you forgotten what it actually says?

Here's one of my favorite direct quotes from the ad:

"The Secrets Only World Champions Know And Only Share WIth Themselves"

Is this some kind of joke?? There is a secret Illuminati of world champions selfishly guarding a secret that Lloyd has discovered and is benevolently sharing with us? You're telling me that Saulo is keeping this to himself? How about the several hundred other present and past world champions.

Why would he say something that is simply untrue. (or if you believe it, put your tinfoil hat on and walk AWAY from the computer). Oh that's right - it's to appeal to that select group of people that have no familial commitments, access to a great coach, no major financial burdens etc etc. rolls eyes

"There are actually formulas and that is something you are blindly missing here. You seem to think you know a whole lot about what is going on with everything, but the fact of the matter is it seems you are ignorant to what it takes to reach a high level of jiu jitsu. Just showing up isn't enough. Putting together the right game plan, learning and drilling transitional attacks etc. these are the things you don't get in most schools."

Will you just please STOP with this mantra?? I never disagreed with his abilities as a coach, or the fact that to reach the highest levels of jiu jitsu (or ANY sport for that matter) you need a solid work ethic, desire, ambition, dedication, good coaching, intelligent training, a "gameplan" etc.

I am simply stating two very simple things.

1) If what Lloyd has is so special and select - then his results wouldn't be repeated by other great coaches. Draculino has some world class students, some produced in "break neck" speed. BJ Penn progressed really fast, Saulo did too.

2) His ADVERTISING IS DISHONEST. Not because I say so - but because he uses words like

Immediate

Quick

Easy

Success

Secret

etc etc.

Now ask yourself (another lesson in logic for you - so pay careful attention) why would he include ALL of those words multiple times when in reality the process to get black belt takes time, hard work, dedication, sacrifice? Why would he not only OMIT the most important characteristics required to become good at jiu jitsu and INCLUDE suggestions of the exact opposite?

HHHhmmmmmmm?

Of course he doesn't make any promises - but we know that it would all of a sudden change his marketing campaign from dishonest to illegal.

Is your reading comprehension really that bad?

Bentley,

You really are just wasting my time much like your stupid chess thread that I was being diplomatic about, but sucked and was flat out stupid.

1) We have agreed his claim can only be used by a small amount of the population, but does that make his claim a lie? No, it doesn't.

2)Find me a BJJ school owner who isn't out to make money and I will show you a school with no students and probably trains in a garage. Any decent school has to make money, or there will be no school. Are you really this stupid?

3)He is targeting the mass population and I have said this again and again and for those who can't read or comprehend (you) find someone to help you with this. It is up to the individual to decide if this program is suited for you and if you can devote the time and commitment in order to achieve it. He is not asking you to give him $2000 and he promises in 3 1/2 years you will have a black belt no matter what. There is a difference.

4) I don't believe there is any secret that these guys are keeping to themselves. I think and have said that's the slick used car salesman persona that is in his adverts.

5) You keep naming one guy who did it. The fact is Lloyd has multiple guys actually numerous that are under him that have done it. There is a formula that he is obviously using and it's working. The guys you mention are individuals and none from the same team. You can say Draculhino has done this, but who and where are these guys?

6)What's dishonest about those words, are all those things true if you follow his program the way he says? The answer is yes, so that makes it true. The fact is the truth of those statements are probably only fit for .5% of the populous, but they aren't false.

IIt's like Obi Wan said, "it's the truth from a certain point of view" That doesn't make it a lie or dishonest, just vague and there is a difference.

The man is purposely vague in a lot of areas, but the thing is you are going to have to walk in the doors and see for yourself what it takes. He doesn't make you pay for 3 1/2 years up front. It is an advertisement and he is going to use strong drawing points to entice people to come in to check out his school. This is done in advertising every day, (remember the pepsi challenge?) but you aren't bent out of shape about that. You don't have to like the way he does it, but you have to understand that he needs to generate interest in his school and he isn't lying about anything to do it.

I honestly don't care to continue this because;

1) I'm not a Lloyd Irvin student.
2) I have had more than my share of debating against Lloyd and his snake oil products at times
3) I really don't care enough about this to continue, you believe he is being dishonest. I believe he is being vague about the commitment it takes, but like most things in life that are worth getting that is always the case.

If the folk criticizing/attacking Robert Bentley are typical of Lloyd's students, I can guarantee that that Lloyd and his students are folks I don't want to train with.

Fowler took silver at the last Pan Ams as a black. He beat Igor Gracie. He beat Moraes (screwed). He is definitly world class.

By world class, i mean able to medal at black belt at the two top tournaments, the copa do mundo or mundials. By that measure, Igor isn't and neither is Mike (albeit they are both very talented).

I know Rhadi can't help himself (he's always name dropping bless him), but there is a difference between a guy like saulo, who has achieved true greatness in his sport, a guy like Lloyd, who has won the masters and guys like mike and rhadi, who, whilst good at their respective sports are limited (as it were) to being 'exceptional for americans' in their sport, rather than genuinely being world class competitors.

Rhadi's, Lloyd's (and Matt Furey's for that matter)  hyperbole filled marketing are from the same school. Love them or hate them, people remember them, if they weren't effective/financially beneficial, they wouldn't do them.

PAW,

I think you should read what I said, I am not a Lloyd student.

jsho,

Didn't Fowler Medal at the Copa's?

"2)Find me a BJJ school owner who isn't out to make money and I will show you a school with no students and probably trains in a garage. Any decent school has to make money, or there will be no school. Are you really this stupid?"

Charuto is out to make money, and he's doing OK - he doesn't lie or talk about 3.5 year black belts.

Draculino is out to make money, and he's doing OK - he doesn't lie or talk about 3.5 year black belts.

Renzo is out to make money, and he's doing OK - he doesn't lie or talk about 3.5 year black belts.

Roger Gracie is out to make money, and he's doing OK - he doesn't lie or talk about 3.5 year black belts.

Marc Laim is out to make money, and he's doing OK - he doesn't lie or talk about 3.5 year black belts.

You know this list is quite large right? So deception and talk about immediate, easy improvement isn't necessary - as I hope you now understand.

4) I don't believe there is any secret that these guys are keeping to themselves. I think and have said that's the slick used car salesman persona that is in his adverts.

So I point out something that you acknowledge is untrue, and instead of finally just admitting that it's dishonest... you call it "slick"

6)What's dishonest about those words, are all those things true if you follow his program the way he says? The answer is yes, so that makes it true. The fact is the truth of those statements are probably only fit for .5% of the populous, but they aren't false.

They aren't false in the "legal-ese" way simply because he can be called on it. If 99% of what it takes to achieve his claims isn't mentioned, he mentions quick, immediate, secrets, success, easy etc.- he is being dishonest about the product he is selling.

This is just straightforward logic.

You actually more or less acknowledge this but out of pig-headedness you're deciding to call his marketing "slick" instead of outright dishonest (which has been clearly shown). You see, a person can be dishonest without being outright false.

If I get home after a gambling binge and my wife asks me "Did you blow ALL of our money on the slots????" and I spent 99% of the money on the slots - would it be honest or dishonest of me to say "No honey, I didn't spend all of our money on the slots!" because technically I'm correct?

And finally - to call you on this ignorant B.S

"5) You keep naming one guy who did it. The fact is Lloyd has multiple guys actually numerous that are under him that have done it. There is a formula that he is obviously using and it's working. The guys you mention are individuals and none from the same team. You can say Draculhino has done this, but who and where are these guys? "

Here is a link to his teams achievements:

http://www.jjbh.com/english/gbbh_titles.html

And specific students of his who have achieved success in record time include Samuel Braga - rooster weight WORLD champion 2005 (after having trained 5 years), there is another student who's name escapes me at the moment - he won the mundials at brown belt after having trained only a few years, and won it again the following year (he almost NEVER gives out black belts early, even with enormous competitive success - he puts heavy emphasis on "time served", understanding and teaching ability as well.

Now these aren't simply students who got a black belt - these are world champions.

So I would say that his method is

a) VERY successful

b) Has produced NUMEROUS champions

and MOST importantly

NEVER SAID IT WOULD BE EASY, QUICK, IMMEDIATE, BECAUSE OF SECRETS, etc.

Soooooo, I guess there are good coaches out there that have no need for.... oh, what did you call it??

Ahhh, that's right

"Slick" advertising.

Have a good day.

Bentley,

Where did Lloyd lie? That's all I will ask. Have a good day with the rest of your BS. You say he lied, where does he lie?

Where did Lloyd lie?

1) You've already acknowledged that this secret society of black belts he refers to is probably not true.

2) Read the analogy I posted above to understand what being dishonest means. If you don't understand that analogy, then there is no point talking to you any further.

jsho, Didn't Fowler Medal at the Copa's?

not at black belt.

"5) You keep naming one guy who did it. The fact is Lloyd has multiple guys actually numerous that are under him that have done it. There is a formula that he is obviously using and it's working. The guys you mention are individuals and none from the same team. You can say Draculhino has done this, but who and where are these guys? "

trolling or foolish to try to compare the achievements of Irvin (who, admittedly has turned out some good guys like Fowler and  Hall, has had a hand in Rhadi's development i assume, as well as a very competitive team on the US circuit).

but...

Draculinho has produced multiple Copa Do Mundo and mundials medallists at GBBH such as Titi, Sururu, Erik Wanderley, Cranivata, Gazzineli, Pe De Chumbo, Perez and of course, the exceptional  Samuel Braga. Pe De Chumbo and 'Titi' won their categories at the ADCC Brazil trials recently as well.

He has also had a hand in the production of guys like Roger, Braulio, PDP etc.

Oh and his own competition record is <understament>pretty good too</understament>.

Lloyd is not in the same league as Draculinho either as a grappler or as a coach, to pretend otherwise is silly.

Robert,

You said he lied, and I said he was vague and I even gave an example of champions training ways and knowing some things certain regular people do not. That does not make it a lie, like you said it's the truth from a certain point of view.

He hasn't lied, but you keep saying he is a liar.

There is no point in taking this any further, because you simply keep calling him a liar and he isn't.

YAMON,

I agree he should stop the BS and release it. I don't think he ever had real plans on giving it up. He wanted to draw interest into his school which is where you will learn the things he is doing.

Jsho,

I am not comparing what Drachulino has done in comparison to Lloyd. We are talking about short trips to black belt, not over all accomplishments there is a difference and you are confusing teh two. Drac's has produced an infinite amount of competitors and black belts compared to most instructors. This wasn't about that, this was about the production of competitive BBs who got their very quickly in 4 years or under.