Hopefully, this will be my last side mount escape question for some time :)
When I escape from the side mount by going to my knees, I find it much easier if my far arm is pushing on his hips, leg or stomach, than if it's pushing on his neck. (Of course, I will be pulling my near elbow under myself at the same time.) Do you guys have the same experience?
But by doing this, I end up in the front turtle position with him in front of me and his weight on my back so I guess I have to get better at the peek out escape from the front turtle pretty quick.
When my far arm pushes on his neck in the going to knees escape from side mount, I tend to end up more upright and in a more neutral position, i.e. the clinch position with us on our knees, but I find this harder to do, because it seems to be easier for him to dip his chin down, turn his head sideways and drive me back flat.
Like I said, is this normal and should I in general favor the hip push escape to knees over the neck push variation? My guess is - yes, but it would be nice to get a confirmation from someone here.
Regards,
jonpall.
Well, for me I tend to have my near arm on his hip and the far arm under his armpit pushing against his lats. This pushes his weight off of you and makes it easier to make space. You then shrimp away from them whilst turning to your front, making sure you are in line with them.
The next step is to grab their thighs and (whilst keeping your head up to avoid the choke) pull yourself forward until your shoulder is tight against their stomach. Once here you bring your knees up under your body.
The last step is to put the foot on the same side of your head flat on the ground and drive off with it, pushing your head into their side to take the double leg and land in side control.
Also, remember that the best time to escape any kind of turtle is IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait for him to establish his position. Move!
~TT
Ah, finally someone starts a thread on this topic! This has been one of my obsessions these last few months. I have a few thoughts but they are far from definitive.
I think what position you end up has as much to do with your opponent's arm position (near/far side) as which arm you use for leverage. For example, if your opponent pins you with both arms near side, and you shrimp away to roll (like Thorton shows in FJKD2), no matter which way you roll, his arms will be outside yours so you will end up under him.
But, if let's say he's pinning you on your right side, left arm under neck, right arm far hip, then if you use your left arm to push his head and roll to your left, you can use your right arm to wrap around his head to end up on top. (Comprido shows this in the infamous Unique series. Lindland does some thing very similar to Bustamante.)
To put it another way, it has to do a) what you're controlling as you're coming up (what leverage you can create) and b) where your head ends up (in or outside his arms). Making sure you don't give your back seems to be the number one priority.
Take another example, first side mount escape taught in BJJ, same as above, he's pinning you right side, left under neck, right on far hip. You put your left arm under his armpit, bridge a bit, push hips with right arm and roll. Your control will be your left arm on his back until you get half-way out, then it will change to his right leg. You are rolling under him, so your head will end up under his body. The best position to be in will be sideways under him, head inside (so he can't take your back), holding his right leg for a possible takedown. The point is because you are controlling his leg and he controlling nothing on you, even though you can carrying his weight, you are in control.
I feel all these thoughts slowly coming together into some grand theory of coming to knees... Perhaps Jonpall can help me with this...
"This has been one of my obsessions these last few months. I have a few thoughts but they are far from definitive. ... I feel all these thoughts slowly coming together into some grand theory of coming to knees"
Wow :) I've been thinking the exact same thing lately. Couldn't you tell? :) For me, it seems that pulling guard is a much more understood technique by most people than going to their knees. Maybe it's just me.
"I think what position you end up has as much to do with your opponent's arm position (near/far side) as which arm you use for leverage. For example, if your opponent pins you with both arms near side, and you shrimp away to roll (like Thorton shows in FJKD2), no matter which way you roll, his arms will be outside yours so you will end up under him. "
I'm not sure this is correct, but maybe it is. The thing is, if your far arm is pushing his neck away, you might be able to get to your knees without him putting his weight on you. But I find this hard against guys that don't let you push directly into their throat and really ram into you.
"Making sure you don't give your back seems to be the number one priority."
I actually recall Andrew Yao writing that it's realistically hard to get to your knees without ending in the front turtle, at least momentarily.
Are you sure that you aren't confusing the going to knees escape with the bridge and roll escape? When you escape by going to knees, he will be on his knees too, not on his back.
Hmm... What happens when I'm escaping the both hands near side pin is as I turn, he can take the arm that's near my head and put me in a front headlock (arm-in guillotine) position. It's because I'm rolling in air without grabbing on the some part of his body to control it.
Re: not giving your back. I meant when you come up to front turtle, unless you're grabbing on to something and/or your head is inside blocking his way, it is very easy for him to spin to your back. When I'm sloppy coming up to my knees, I either get caught in a guillotine or they spin to my back. That's why I've developed a mania for getting a control as I turn to my knees...
Incidentally, I have a real hard time getting peek outs. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm smaller than virtually everyone is class. I've started to do the tripod-ing (push up first then burst forward), which helps a bit. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Bolo's DVD on back escapes deals with the front turtle (and side turtle) very well...
You see a lot of high level guys escape by going to turtle, and then sitting back to guard. Turtle and guard escapes go together, and many turtle escapes can end up in the guard as well
If you feel that you having prolems with him on top of you, then try to stand up and make it your game, in other words dont get into that position........
To shorten what I'm saying: I'm finding it easiest to escape to my knees when I'm using various kinds of "both arms on hips/legs" postures, instead of the "forearm under throat" or "bicep under armpit" postures, but the drawback is that I end under the front turtle and not in the clinch or having his back, as would often happen with the other two postures, respectively.
Why am I finding it easier? Well, I think it's because it seems to be harder for my opponent to drive me flat when both my arms AND shoulders are under him with the "both arms on hips/legs".
Also, getting this posture is pretty easy from the posture against the modified scarf hold in which your near elbow is down on the mat and your far elbow pushes his chest, because you are almost there already, especially if he switches back to a regular side mount or north/south.
If I'm understanding the problem you're presenting, you have two options: try to double leg the guy of go to the guard. I like the latter unless, I really outclass my opponent.
I'm not really having a problem - I'm just asking if you guys experience the same things.
If I wanna get to my knees easier I would suck my chin to my chest, so if he has side control then it will be easier for your head to move out of the way of his arm and under when it is time to escape and get to my knees. And Twinkletoes is right on when to get out of turtle position-'IMMEDEATELY'.
Top for later
WWAYD?
Exactemundo, zulrik ;)
Yes, I tend to push more on the hip than on the neck if I want to go my knees.