I was suprised to hear my son, a fairly accomplished high school wrestler, say something along these lines the other day. He said he hated wrestling scrubs because even though they were easy to beat, you never knew what they were going to do. The intensity level is alwYs high in wrestling but he said good guys alwaYs react in certain ways, scrubs just spazz out. I was kind of shoked because most jiu jitsu guys think all wreztlers are spazzes but, apparently, they have spazzes as well.
SidRon -The Maestro -SidRon - Speaking as a brown belt I am going to let you in on a little known secret. When upper belts roll with white belts they are usually taking it easy on them and giving them opportunities to work things. Most higher belts could brutally destroy white belts in a manner in which they would never want to come into the gym again. They don't do this because it is disrespectful and neither person would really get much skill development from the encounter. When white belts roll with each other these courtesies usually do not apply and it is basically an ugly battle of physical attributes. So in summary you are most likely only perceiving that you are doing well against upper belts because they are allowing it. If you want a reality check tell one of your upper belt training partners that you want to experience their full competition game and ask them to hold nothing back. My guess is that you will get a different experience.Although I agree with this 100% there is one other thing to consider. Advanced BJJ guys (Blue and up) move and react like bjj guys. So all of the techniques and counters work because these guys are reacting how a typically bjj taught person would react. Setups tend to work surprisingly well in these battles.
White belts, spazz, react in a non-trained manner and generally are all over the place. This is why setups typically work poorly in these battles. The guy turns the wrong way, he uses an unorthodox escape, he explodes in an awkward manner. Battles like this are much more likely to emulate a real life street fight, than a guy pushing down your DLR hook and sliding to a knee slice.
That’s a good point. Probably useful to train with those guys from a self defense perspective.
I agree
twinkletoesCT -It's easy to play monopoly against someone else who knows the rules of monopoly.
It's hard to play monopoly when the other guy doesn't know the game, and keeps eating the pieces and throwing the money off the table.
I laughed out loud at this one
As a brown belt (and based on the way you describe how you fare against the various level guys) I hate to break it to you, but if I ratchet it up and we play for keeps like competition simulation, I will play my A game and dictate how the roll goes. I will capitalize on your mistakes and gaps, and submit you in short order, with my top percentage submissions. Then I will do it again, but this time quicker, because I have crushed your spirit. Then you will gas AND have your will broken and I will pick whatever submission I feel like applying at the time.
If we roll normally, I may work on a new gripping approach or takedown entry, or guard pull. Then I might work my open or spider or lasso guard that needs work. I might hit a sweep or you go 100% and maybe force a pass. I may be giving you the almost pass so I can focus on improving my guard retention and fuck it up and give up side control. Maybe I want to work my new side control escape from a video that had a new concept or hand positioning that I have repped and drilled but not applied in live rolling, so I make you work a pass, do it technically, but don’t counter and shut it down, so I get to side control and try my escape. Perhaps I then escape, retain guard, sweep you then leave a hand on the mat to see if you identify the opening. After 10 seconds of me kinda wiggling it around and I notice that you are attacking a collar grip, tunnel visioned to what you are trying to do instead of taking what is available I break your lapel grip and initiate a new passing sequence I have been trying. I like to give a back and forth in my rolls with lower belts. Mutual benefit.
Or it could be 100 other factors going in to why I choose to roll with you the way I do.
Hell, I can tell when my instructor is fucking with me, trying and finishing the same sweep over and over then letting me get back on top, or passing up a sweep or sub that I know I am vulnerable to, because he is trying only one guard. Or getting the same lapel guard, and seeing the different counters i try against it, and shutting down each one until he can counter and sweep or submit again from only that position.
carcaju - As a brown belt (and based on the way you describe how you fare against the various level guys) I hate to break it to you, but if I ratchet it up and we play for keeps like competition simulation, I will play my A game and dictate how the roll goes. I will capitalize on your mistakes and gaps, and submit you in short order, with my top percentage submissions. Then I will do it again, but this time quicker, because I have crushed your spirit. Then you will gas AND have your will broken and I will pick whatever submission I feel like applying at the time.If we roll normally, I may work on a new gripping approach or takedown entry, or guard pull. Then I might work my open or spider or lasso guard that needs work. I might hit a sweep or you go 100% and maybe force a pass. I may be giving you the almost pass so I can focus on improving my guard retention and fuck it up and give up side control. Maybe I want to work my new side control escape from a video that had a new concept or hand positioning that I have repped and drilled but not applied in live rolling, so I make you work a pass, do it technically, but don’t counter and shut it down, so I get to side control and try my escape. Perhaps I then escape, retain guard, sweep you then leave a hand on the mat to see if you identify the opening. After 10 seconds of me kinda wiggling it around and I notice that you are attacking a collar grip, tunnel visioned to what you are trying to do instead of taking what is available I break your lapel grip and initiate a new passing sequence I have been trying. I like to give a back and forth in my rolls with lower belts. Mutual benefit.
Or it could be 100 other factors going in to why I choose to roll with you the way I do.
Hell, I can tell when my instructor is fucking with me, trying and finishing the same sweep over and over then letting me get back on top, or passing up a sweep or sub that I know I am vulnerable to, because he is trying only one guard. Or getting the same lapel guard, and seeing the different counters i try against it, and shutting down each one until he can counter and sweep or submit again from only that position.
I have a super tough brown belt at my place who works with me like you describe. I very much appreciate it and seek him out every chance I can get. He made a comment recently about how I was looking to submit him. I said, nope, my goal is to simply try and pass your guard. Each day I'm getting closer. :)
carcaju - As a brown belt (and based on the way you describe how you fare against the various level guys) I hate to break it to you, but if I ratchet it up and we play for keeps like competition simulation, I will play my A game and dictate how the roll goes. I will capitalize on your mistakes and gaps, and submit you in short order, with my top percentage submissions. Then I will do it again, but this time quicker, because I have crushed your spirit. Then you will gas AND have your will broken and I will pick whatever submission I feel like applying at the time.If we roll normally, I may work on a new gripping approach or takedown entry, or guard pull. Then I might work my open or spider or lasso guard that needs work. I might hit a sweep or you go 100% and maybe force a pass. I may be giving you the almost pass so I can focus on improving my guard retention and fuck it up and give up side control. Maybe I want to work my new side control escape from a video that had a new concept or hand positioning that I have repped and drilled but not applied in live rolling, so I make you work a pass, do it technically, but don’t counter and shut it down, so I get to side control and try my escape. Perhaps I then escape, retain guard, sweep you then leave a hand on the mat to see if you identify the opening. After 10 seconds of me kinda wiggling it around and I notice that you are attacking a collar grip, tunnel visioned to what you are trying to do instead of taking what is available I break your lapel grip and initiate a new passing sequence I have been trying. I like to give a back and forth in my rolls with lower belts. Mutual benefit.
Or it could be 100 other factors going in to why I choose to roll with you the way I do.
Hell, I can tell when my instructor is fucking with me, trying and finishing the same sweep over and over then letting me get back on top, or passing up a sweep or sub that I know I am vulnerable to, because he is trying only one guard. Or getting the same lapel guard, and seeing the different counters i try against it, and shutting down each one until he can counter and sweep or submit again from only that position.
Right Im not saying I touch brown belts. I also don’t destroy other blues/purples. What I mean is we may go sweep for sweep, I may pass one roll, they may pass one roll. I may tap them once, I might get tapped once.
But with massive white belts, it feels like I cant do anything to them
The Closed Guard -carcaju - As a brown belt (and based on the way you describe how you fare against the various level guys) I hate to break it to you, but if I ratchet it up and we play for keeps like competition simulation, I will play my A game and dictate how the roll goes. I will capitalize on your mistakes and gaps, and submit you in short order, with my top percentage submissions. Then I will do it again, but this time quicker, because I have crushed your spirit. Then you will gas AND have your will broken and I will pick whatever submission I feel like applying at the time.If we roll normally, I may work on a new gripping approach or takedown entry, or guard pull. Then I might work my open or spider or lasso guard that needs work. I might hit a sweep or you go 100% and maybe force a pass. I may be giving you the almost pass so I can focus on improving my guard retention and fuck it up and give up side control. Maybe I want to work my new side control escape from a video that had a new concept or hand positioning that I have repped and drilled but not applied in live rolling, so I make you work a pass, do it technically, but don’t counter and shut it down, so I get to side control and try my escape. Perhaps I then escape, retain guard, sweep you then leave a hand on the mat to see if you identify the opening. After 10 seconds of me kinda wiggling it around and I notice that you are attacking a collar grip, tunnel visioned to what you are trying to do instead of taking what is available I break your lapel grip and initiate a new passing sequence I have been trying. I like to give a back and forth in my rolls with lower belts. Mutual benefit.
Or it could be 100 other factors going in to why I choose to roll with you the way I do.
Hell, I can tell when my instructor is fucking with me, trying and finishing the same sweep over and over then letting me get back on top, or passing up a sweep or sub that I know I am vulnerable to, because he is trying only one guard. Or getting the same lapel guard, and seeing the different counters i try against it, and shutting down each one until he can counter and sweep or submit again from only that position.
Right Im not saying I touch brown belts. I also don’t destroy other blues/purples. What I mean is we may go sweep for sweep, I may pass one roll, they may pass one roll. I may tap them once, I might get tapped once.
But with massive white belts, it feels like I cant do anything to them
If they are "massive" , but the purples are not then the answer is choosing a better game plan. Armdrags are your friend.
Also, the same sweeps will be much harder to get on larger opponents that work on same size partners. Try lucas Leite style half guard and using your feet to push away at the base of them in other guard positions. It will use their weight against them.
purplehaze -The Closed Guard -carcaju - As a brown belt (and based on the way you describe how you fare against the various level guys) I hate to break it to you, but if I ratchet it up and we play for keeps like competition simulation, I will play my A game and dictate how the roll goes. I will capitalize on your mistakes and gaps, and submit you in short order, with my top percentage submissions. Then I will do it again, but this time quicker, because I have crushed your spirit. Then you will gas AND have your will broken and I will pick whatever submission I feel like applying at the time.If we roll normally, I may work on a new gripping approach or takedown entry, or guard pull. Then I might work my open or spider or lasso guard that needs work. I might hit a sweep or you go 100% and maybe force a pass. I may be giving you the almost pass so I can focus on improving my guard retention and fuck it up and give up side control. Maybe I want to work my new side control escape from a video that had a new concept or hand positioning that I have repped and drilled but not applied in live rolling, so I make you work a pass, do it technically, but don’t counter and shut it down, so I get to side control and try my escape. Perhaps I then escape, retain guard, sweep you then leave a hand on the mat to see if you identify the opening. After 10 seconds of me kinda wiggling it around and I notice that you are attacking a collar grip, tunnel visioned to what you are trying to do instead of taking what is available I break your lapel grip and initiate a new passing sequence I have been trying. I like to give a back and forth in my rolls with lower belts. Mutual benefit.
Or it could be 100 other factors going in to why I choose to roll with you the way I do.
Hell, I can tell when my instructor is fucking with me, trying and finishing the same sweep over and over then letting me get back on top, or passing up a sweep or sub that I know I am vulnerable to, because he is trying only one guard. Or getting the same lapel guard, and seeing the different counters i try against it, and shutting down each one until he can counter and sweep or submit again from only that position.
Right Im not saying I touch brown belts. I also don’t destroy other blues/purples. What I mean is we may go sweep for sweep, I may pass one roll, they may pass one roll. I may tap them once, I might get tapped once.
But with massive white belts, it feels like I cant do anything to them
If they are "massive" , but the purples are not then the answer is choosing s better game plan. Armdrags are your friend.
Also, the same sweeps will be much harder to get on larger opponents that work on same size partners. Try lucas Leite style half guard and using your fort to push away at the base of them in other guard positions. It will use their weight against them.
Nice!
The fundamentals should give you all of the answers you need.
From the bottom position practice retaining open guard. It should be fairly easy to maintain; if not, you know what you need to work on. The BSWB (big strong white belt) will give you plenty of openings as they flail away attempting to pass. Tripod sweeps, armdrags, guillotines, etc.
From the top position work on holding position and transitioning between different top positions. Openings for submissions should begin to appear as they attempt to move or escape.
When I first started at blue I had this problem and it's usually because I was dealing with a white belt that was pretty athletic and strong and I was only trying to use strength against them. I just remembered this one white belt that came in awhile back who was like 6' 225-230and used to play college football. He had been training about 6 months or so and his hips were goddamn ridiculous from football. He gave more than a few people problems. He didn't submit me but he put me in some bad spots. You have to recognize and appreciate the attributes that some guys can bring in from other sports/activities. The next time I rolled with him I made sure to go to spots quicker and try to not let him get to spots where he could start controlling me.
BJJ guys generally have an agreed upon pace that they will roll at, but not necessarily newer guys. This isn't really a bad thing. We get too conditioned to deal with common BJJ movements. I know people are trying to stay healthy and want to maintain a moderate pace, but if run into random football beast in a non gym situation then you could be on your ass in a bad situation because you don't train with that burst level intensity coming at you. It's good to learn to use that intensity against them if you can.
The same happens to me when I roll with large white belts. I find that it's because I am waiting to counter moves that never come, since they don't know any.
In order to not get stuck in a bad spot I have to impose my will and game on them from the jump and shut everything down right away. From that point I can let them in but it has to be me guiding them.
You should watch the higher belts that you mention roll with the large white belts that you mention and make some comparisons against that and your performances with each.