Right.
It’s like the overhand right. Probably causes the most KOs in MMA. But, fighters often go for it too much at their peril.
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Nothing recent about it. For years, we have seen fighters give up TDD in attempts to secure guillotines, lose the TD and lose the round.
Right. The cost of failing to secure, say, an RNC or arm triangle is far lower than the cost of failing to secure a guillotine.
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Exactly. We see plenty of guys get finished with a guillotine, but we see a fuckload more fail. Especially from the guard position.
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Right. It’s like with an arm triangle and if you fail, worst case scenario is half guard. Some people prefer half. Or maybe side mount, which is probably a worse position than full mount. So to me it’s not just about the “failed choke”, it’s also about the loss of position and potential trouble you’re putting yourself in. A failed RNC is rarely a complete “fail”, as many times we see somebody hang on a guy’s back and land shots for minutes at a time. Going for a heel hook is another example of a very risky sub, although much more difficult to pull off than a guillotine.
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That’s wrong. An rnc is essentially a zero risk submission from a completely dominant position where a guillotine in most cases you’re giving up position for the sub.
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No way. Most guillotines in the modern era have been arm-in. It’s a stronger position overall than a no arm and easier to enter.
If your students aren’t allowed to apply them, good luck with your students knowing how to escape them.
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I don’t think OP meant ban them from ever using them in practice. But, discourage it as an in-MMA fight-technique.
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I’m not talking about dominant positions, I’m talking about the difference between what constitutes an honest submission attempt vs scenarios where there was no actual threat of said sud and more of an effect positioning. As you mentioned, many guillotine attempts are the result of regression. RNC attempts still maintain a dominant position most of the time, but what I am saying is that the amount of attempts vs success is probably similar.
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But how is that relevant to whether you should attempt it in MMA? Going for a guillotine cannot be assessed in MMA without considering the potential loss of position.
That’s the impression I got too.
I train with mostly a striking background and the techniques that enter the fights are polished, simple, reliable. But we’re still learning awesome mad spinning shit in the gym.
As others have mentioned, falling to your back with it without having a full bite on the neck is probably not a great idea to begin with.
The guillotine is one of the simplest chokes there is. To suggest it’s something that shouldn’t be trained is just an odd viewpoint IMO. There’s several variations of it and going to your back to closed guard proactively with it is probably the in the lower percentile of finishes, but how often does a mounted guillotine fail?
We can only assume. Sounds like he would ban them altogether to me…
You can literally say this about nearly every submission attempt in MMA. It’s one reason the sport has become small glove kickboxing with takedowns.
I don’t think anyone is saying it shouldn’t be trained, but it’s definitely overused in MMA and leads to loss of position. A lot of them fail. Like, ALOT. With something like a kimura, you can tell when a guy is actually committing to it and when he’s using the grip for another reason. Guillotines are just… guillotines. If you look at something like an armbar. It definitely seems like it’s higher percentage because generally, it’s not a submission that’s casually thrown up the way a guillotine is. You just don’t see other submissions attempted as much as a guillotine, because it doesn’t take as much skill to wrap your arms around somebody’s neck as it does to lock in an armbar or take a guy’s back.
Guys, my bad. If my posts are leaving something to be desired, it’s because I know fuck all about jiu jitsu. I come from a striking background and have never once rolled. So I know I am not knowledgeable in the intricacies of these submissions. But I have been watching the sport long enough to know fighter tendencies, and the guillotine seems like possibly the most failed submission in the game.
I think it depends on the timing. As stated, guillotines has the arms and give up position, but it’s not a bad choke to finish a round where you might lose points to a takedown or to use on a similarly gassed opponent. A great example is cain vs Werdum.