would you be a BJJ player who does Judo or just a Judoka? The reason i ask is because I thought BJJ was just 100% focus on ground Judo.
Or are there huge differences between BJJ and ground Judo? If yes, do the BJJ black belts who also crosstrain Judo alter their ground game when doing Judo or just train stand up judo?
I'm interested in learning some judo to add to my BJJ. Therefore, I'm a little curious how it works.
Perry H: Think of it this way:
How would the BJJ game change if you did not have sport rules for it? No points for Backmount, or passing the guard, or getting the hooks in.
Now, on the flip side, how would judo change if there was no stoppage for lack of progress on the ground, or no ippon rule.
You'd very much be looking at the same thing.
It's just each side's sport really ends up defining where the emphasis of technique is at.
The rules make the differences between the two.
Also, Judo teaches more details about throws while BJJ goes into more details about ground work.
Jonpall: Due to the years of sport development.
I mean, it was something I observed when I was training this week. Both in BJJ and Judo, the sport rules aren't really observed when you are rolling/Randori. Few times do I ever see someone stand up in Judo Randori for lack of ground progress.
Also, very few times do I see anyone keep track of the score of the 'match' when they are rolling in BJJ.
But still the sport influence is so very heavy.
Kai, that was simple, concise, and awesome. Great answer. I have a hard time saying it that eloquently, or with such brevity.
Rock on.
~TT
My instructors train Judo and they only train the standup.
Every judo school ive ever been to stopped when the top guy lifted the bottom guy off the ground when training newaza randori. In other words the "guard" in judo is not very focused on where in BJJ its usually the greatest studied and trained position. This point alone makes the game drasticly different.
The Gracies have also designed a much different system for teaching the ground. They have a solid curriculum including escapes and defense not seen or taught in a traditional judo dojo.
Not to mention - BJJ regularly covers no gi training including takedowns, vale tudo/clinch training and leg locks.
If you have the time to train both equally and consistently than i say go for it. They will only help each other. If you add some wrestling too u will very well rounded.
yea.. all the above are true.
BTW.. for those interested..
The Olympic Team Trials for Judo and Taekowndo will be held June 5th at the San Jose State University Event Center in Jose, California. Those attending the trials are encouraged to use the Headquarters Hotel which is:
San Jose Marriott 301 South Market Street San Jose, CA 95113 Reservations: Voice: 408/280-1300 Fax: 408/278-4444
Menion the Judo/Taekwondo Olympic Team Trials to receive the rate of $79+Tax.
that price is actualy really good for san jose. the hotel is only about 4 blocks from campus as well. you wont find a better hotel price within the same distance.
you'd just be a better grappler. It's all jacketed grappling... while you're at it, learn some sambo.
Modern Judo groundwork is nothing at all like BJJ groundwork.How is it so different? I don't see it. judo - technical standup/ basic newaza. bjj - technical newaza/ basic standup.
BJJ's guard alone is more complex than any martial artHate to say it, but stop drinking the Koolaid.
I trained judo for 5 years and when i started jiujitsu I saw first month white belts doing basic bjj moves i had never seen before. Jiujitsu is much more complex on the ground... or at the very least my BJJ club is much more technical than my old judo club
hopefuly there will be more cross polination of the arts, it pisses me off that after 2 years the guys at the uni judo club would still struglle to put on a straight armbar.
pins are probably fine, half guard nothing more than holding them there
half the guys in competition think its over if they are in your guard, they're like wtf, hes actually attacking my arms
I am currently a Brown belt in judo, and currently training BJJ with my friend who is a purple belt twice a week.
I only had 4 months of BJJ training at at BJJ club
www.rebellionjj.com
and my ground game definetely improved, but some aspect of the judo rules effect my ground game, adn the sport rule off bjj effected my stand up
Also I been ledning tapes to my judo instuctor who is 3rd dan in judo, and compete on the world Master's level.
He is currently watching my Oma plato tape and he loves it, of course you can't attack the should but we been using it to set up for are locks, or kimura
Also my judo instructor and I spend about 10 minutes per class doing BJJ style rule, like knee locks, ankle lock, open guard etc. He is really into BJJ, he was really imprress with all the variation and counter attack, mind you this guy is a former Iranian wrestling champion and a Canadian National Rank Fighter http://www.zeerebel.com/mma/submissionwrestling.html
Judo is more explosive and take less risk on the ground. I am a pretty small guy, so when I am pin tight in class, my opponent rather goes for a hold down to win rather going for a submission, and that's what we are taught in class, so the BJJ that I know does not work as well.
When I enter my 1st BJJ competition, I was really sucker into the ground game, I was trying to do uchi mata, or tai otoshi, instead my partner jump to guard, or pull me into guard.
I am not really in jumping into guard or pulling guard I feel that is too 1 dimensional and not forcing yourself to work a stand up game
I think it would be wonderful to do both style and understand the difference it will definetly make you a better grappler
My views:
Judo is fought at a much faster pace than BJJ;
Good Judo tachiwaza (throwing skills) will enable one to dominate the standing game in BJJ, but once you're competiting at high Blue/Purple belt level, this apparent advantage is negligable;
One would expect good BJJ ground skills to be of a higher standard than those of a comparably trained Judoka, however Judo's rules don't do a BJJ player any favours.
Some observations from another thread where we were discussing this:
What would be the biggest hurdle for a BJJ guy making the transition to Judo competition?
Deciding what to buy with the fifty bucks he saved on the entry price.
Seriously. Let's just leave the throwing alone: few pure-BJJ guys could mix it competitively with Judoka under Judo competition rules.
As for groundwork, I the traditional neutral BJJ positions (Guard, Half Guard and to a lesser extent Side Control and North-South) cannot be played in the same manner under Judo rules.
Guard - to reset the bout to a standing position, the player in the others guard need only lift the guard holding player clear of the mat.
Half Guard - while caught in Half Guard it is relatively easy to revert to a standard or flat turtle. Again, unless the opponent can rapidly progress the match, both players will be stood up.
Side-Control and North-South are interesting: In BJJ while nobody wants to get caught in either position, being caught doesn't g'tee you'll lose the match. As a result BJJ guys (relative to Judo guys) are somewhat conditioned to think that these positions aren't the worst in the world and may even give it to the opponent at times (I know I do it now and then while setting other moves). In Judo once a player has achieved N-S or Side Control, the pin clock is started: 25 seconds later, if control hasn't been relinquished, it's game over.
I think if you want to excell in one sport, you need to focus on that sport. Take tennis: who has ever heard of top tennis players training via squash, or top American Football players (regularly) playing soccer?
Waveman,
Believe or not but modern Bjj has been heavily influence by Judo. Actually it better said that the "game" of certain Judo players (namely Kimura and Isao Okano) has influence modern Bjj. Their influence come to Bjj through two well-know people in the world of Bjj: George Mehdi and Oswaldo Alves.
Brazilian Judo instructor George Mehdi and Brazilian Bjj/Judo Oswaldo Alves (who was Ronaldo "Jacare" and Sergio Penha's instructor) both trained in Japan with Kimura and Isao Okano. Both have had a HUGE influence and affect on the modern game of Bjj.
Oswaldo Alves has gone so far to say that he even developed alot of the side control game of Bjj based on his training with Judo champ Kimura in Japan.
He stated this in an profile article about him in Grapplers Magazine as well as in an interview on www.onthemat.com website.
very well put fred!!