just a theory, but when you think of all the great players in their respective glory days and how well they'd do against the best of our time, or some other time, i'm thinking it's not the "evolved technique" that will win, but the practioner.
long theory short, some of the early masters of judo/jiujitsu, might have had a "simple" technique mastered so well, (100% effective offensively and defensively) that if a current champion (assuming he's mastered the newest evolved style) were to go up against him, his "new" style wouldn't give him an advantage at all and it would just boil down to the practitioner.
i'm also assuming that many techniques are lost and rediscovered constantly. kinda a technical reincarnation theory.
anyway, this is the kinda shpeel you get when you pump sushi at this late in the evening.
but the sushi was great
it was indeed.
Remember after learning and seeing everyone just do the traditional peel and pass from the guard
then seeing for the 1st time SAKURABA successfully cart wheel over his opponents guards?
Random memory.
cartwheel pass is a very very very old technique. not evolution imo.
I totally agree with the rediscovery cycle. Also the techniques that the, "old time" practitioner would be using to win against someone modern, would be mastered basic fundamental techniques. They end up being the fundamentals because they are so important and so close to that "100%" effective category.
The success of Roger Gracie would be a good example. Very simplistic technique, but he dominates everyone. No fancy stuff, just good, solid basic techniques executed to perfection.
so where does the steal the peach from the monkey tech come in to play
Roger is a great example. Yamashita sensei is another. Crazy mindblowing simple perfection. Unstoppable. Wtf
Damn it! well it was new to me back then.
LOL!
and I still can't do it! sheesh....
A lot of time people want to learn techniques as a series of movements,positioning and hand placements and think that the answer to their technique being countered is yet another more intricate, unexpected techniques. Many people just not aware of certain key concepts underlying the techniques or the objectives of a specific movement, positioning.
but I suck :(
nothing beats good fundamental technique, and great positioning. you only need to catch the opponent in one sub to win unlike punching where you might need a series of punches to end a fight, unless u ko the guy.
Rickson and Kron is another example of basic, but perfect BJJ
I just think people think when they hear "basic" They think it's just a small peice of the puzzle. And more advanced moves will round out their skill set. Instead of "basic" it should be. "High percentage" these moves work the best, with the highest success rate. And advanced moves is the subtle variation at how to keep the success rate high when the "basic" move is blocked correctly. People want to master the "advanced" moved because they think it's the high percentage move.
It's a big play on words that the novice practictioner don't catch. Could also be used more as Martial arts turns to be a business instead of skill and ability.
although rolling will normally weed those out i hope
Concepts will always be the same as bio mechanically we haven't changed the way we move. Hips are still the focal point and if we push a leg down the other comes up.
Mastering the basicis is more then just doing a move but a deeper understanding of a concept. When Kron for example does an arm bar and I do an arm bar they look the same yet his works 100 times better then mine. Obviously he is doing something that I am not and he has understood a concept or principle that I am not getting.
With that said I think todays bjj is way better then back in the day. Yeah basic's still win as proof of Roger, Kron and all the bb finishing people with cross chokes from the mount but I think the understanding of the basics has evolved. In addition with guys like Marcelo Gacia, Saulo Ribero and Loyd Irvin constantly pushing the envelop on how we look at jiu jitsu todays guys has yesterdays knowledge added with todays. Not to mention better training and diet regimines.
In sum Today > Yesterdays jiu jitsu
ku, that's exactly what i'm questioning. the more i think about it, i don't believe that today's greats would stand a better chance against the kimura's (in their primes) or the many unsung mat devils of the past.
my whole thing is that even though we think today's understanding has evolved, i'm thinking it's more rediscovering truths over and over.
then you die.
I think if we had a time machine and flew Cobrinha, Xande, Saulo, Roger or Marcelo back they would completely dominate the competition because there are more people playing now at a higher level they have seen so much competition and so many people they can talk grapping with.
Guys back in the day had competition but not nearly as much now. It wouldnt be fair.
Now if Kimura were around he might have been even greater then he was.
There something I call the Bruce Lee principle. Bruce is the reason most people of my generation got into martial arts. There was no UFC or anything to demonstrate it back in the day so Bruce made movies that show cased it and left in impact on our minds. Essentially he revolutinized martial arts. People say he would get owned today by a purple belt and this is true, if that that purple belt went back in time and challeneged bruce to a bjj match. But then he would learn bjj and dominate that guy in no time.
The principle is that he was the greatest of his time. It applies a lot to football. People look at Jack Tatum and others who were great and say "well they ran 4.6 40's and played against sub par athletes by today standard." True but if they had the same benefits of todays atheletes they would be men amoung boys.
Could you imagine Kimura in todays time?? The guy went around and wrecked every one in grappling and mma
PS
For the same reason I think above I think wrestlers of Gable era are much better then they are now in the US. THis is noted by US wrestlers in international competition
KUIndustries - I think if we had a time machine and flew Cobrinha, Xande, Saulo, Roger or Marcelo back they would completely dominate the competition because there are more people playing now at a higher level they have seen so much competition and so many people they can talk grapping with.
Guys back in the day had competition but not nearly as much now. It wouldnt be fair.
Now if Kimura were around he might have been even greater then he was.
first, you or i don't know the level of competition that was around back in the day in japan. from what i can tell, it was fuggin at least as if not rougher than it is now when it comes to practitioners.
second, we can't know exactly what techniques were learned and lost back then as even though there are some books and even old vid, there's no way to know what it was really like unless you played them.
thirdly, although you mentioned some of my favorite bjj players, i would think yamashita demolishes most of them in gi.
lastly, neither you or i are at a high enough level to judge whether what we see now is higher than what was used and/or lost from the past.
(one more thing: you can't assume bruce lee would be great a bjj. he might actually suck like a lot of great fighters who went into it w/ everyone's expectation of greatness)