Instructors - Would U be insulted?

Underground
1

How would you as an instructor handle a situation like this:

For my example, lets assume its an 'Original' JKD type of school, where you use your strong side forward, and you also teach grappling.

If a student comes to your school and says:

I would like to join and work on my standup and grappling.
But I have had prior training in Muay Thai, and I am used to left side forward.
Is it possible for me to keep my left lead, and my "style".

Basically the student is looking for a place to hit the pads and work on his grappling.
He is not looking to change his style, etc.

Would you allow this, or would you tell the student he has to adapt to your style/techniques, or he has to find another school?

Thanks

2

"How would you...its an 'Original' JKD type of school"

problem, right there

3

Offended? No, but I would show you why you WOULDN'T want to stand a certain way, if I felt that it was wrong for some reason.

For instance, every now and then I get a similar situation, BUT, it's usually a karate/kung fu/TKD guy who say's, "my stand up is good, I just want to add grappling to it." They then want to take up a traditional stance and try to apply from there. They then get beat by a student of about 3-6 months training.

I tell them, if you can make it work, more power to you, but chances are, you're gonna run into more problems than you realize. Their stand up may be 'good' in the karate environment, but not in a JKD/MMA/street environment.

Also, as FB said, your problem is that you are in a 'style' school. You shouldn't expect them to let you stand 'your way' any more than a Shotokan school would. 'OJKD' is a style and it MUST be performed a certain way to be OJKD just as any other style.

4

The OJKD example was just an example.

Here's an example that might be "clearer"

In MT, there are different schools of thought about your supporting leg.

Someplaces tell you to kick on your toes, some say to be flat footed.

If I learned to kick flat footed, then the school I want to go to tells everyone to go on their toes, would it be bad/insulting if I want to keep my "method" of kicking?

Would the instructor be insulted that I wont adapt to his way?

5

Depends on the instructor. But, in Muay Thai, probably.

Personally, I think that if you are there to learn from that instructor, then you should do all that you can to learn and do what they are trying to teach you. When you fight, do what you want and what feels right to you.

For instance, I regulary train in many styles, Muay Thai, Savate, Jun Fan, etc. I do all that I can to do EXACTLY what that instructor wants so that I can get the most from their teaching. I simply flip a mental switch and put myself in Thai mode, Savate mode, etc. When I am in that mode, I do EVERYTHING like that particular mode dictates to get the max benefit of my training in that method.

If an instructor feels that you are going to do what you want anyway, they may be less likely to REALLY help you and teach you. When they may see something that they could help you with, they may just ignore it and walk away.

6

Scott,

What you are saying makes sense.

"I think that if you are there to learn from that instructor, then you should do all that you can to learn and do what they are trying to teach you. When you fight, do what you want and what feels right to you."

But the problem is, my "style" is already ingrained in me...BUT Im not good enough to learn another style. I definetly need to polish my skills...so I am concerned if I start something new after a year or so, I'll just get back to where I am now, rather than getting better from where I am now.

Did that make sense? lol.

I think I should just talk to him, but hes a cool guy and I dont want to insult him.

7

Well, I don't know how many differences you are running into, if there is more than just the foot thing or if that is primarily it. Most little differences like that are not going to set you back in your training. Those are small things to modify.

A good approach would be to talk to him in the form of questions. Tell him that you are having a problem 'getting it' and ask him to help or ask if it really matters. Let him be the instructor and show that you DO want to learn.

A difference in foot placement, etc. is not going to adversely effect your timing or skill development, and those are the important qualities in fighting.

8

"For instance, I regulary train in many styles, Muay Thai, Savate, Jun Fan, etc. I do all that I can to do EXACTLY what that instructor wants so that I can get the most from their teaching. I simply flip a mental switch and put myself in Thai mode, Savate mode, etc. When I am in that mode, I do EVERYTHING like that particular mode dictates to get the max benefit of my training in that method."

This is exactly what I do. I think it's the best way to really get the most out of what you're training at any given time.

jkd_guy, in my experience it would be hard as an instructor to teach you something in class if you insisted on keeping your previous structure. Let's take bjj for example. There are many principles that unite all bjj teachers, styles, etc. However, just as there are many principles that unite, there are also principles that seperate. Many teachers are very specific with how they want you to pass the guard (for example) because with these different methods comes a differnt theory of jiu-jitsu and and a different theory of the fight game in general. I see this as being true with kickboxing styles as well. Yes, Thai boxing, Savate, and Jun Fan are very similar in many ways but they are also very different as well because, even though all are kickboxing delivery systems, they all have a different theory of how the fight should go, what range to focus on, what techniques take priority over others, etc.

So, that being said, if I was trying to teach you kickboxing from a Thai perspective, then it would be hard for me to relate info to you as long as you insisted on maintaining another structure.

I have a friend that I help out a little bit doing wing chun chisao. He likes wing chun, but everytime we go to chisao he stands in the jun fan bai jong instead of the wing chun Jee Mm Ma. He says that he just feels more comfortable in the bai jong because he's done a lot of jun fan. However, whenever I chisao with him it is extremely easy for me to uproot his horse and therefore control centerline because of his stance (mainly because the bai jong generally requires back heel up and doesn't usually advocate "sinking in your horse") and even though he knows this he insists on using the bai jong. As someone trying to teach him wing chun, I find it very difficult to show him anything because any hand movements he learns will be nullified by him being consistently uprooted because of how he stands.

C.J.

9

TTT

10

"Many teachers are very specific with how they want you to pass the guard (for example) because with these different methods comes a differnt theory of jiu-jitsu and and a different theory of the fight game in general."

I think this might be a good example.

Lets say I pass with the leg on my shoulder method, I am successful 50% of the time, but my new BJJ instructor does not teach that way of passing.

It took me awhile just to get to the 50% level, if I learn a new method, then it will take me awhile again just to get to the level I am at now. BUT if I just work my leg on shoulder method, the instructor (even though he does not do it) would probably be able to see holes in my move and give me pointers"

For instance if I went to Renzo and said "I only know how to do the chartwheel pass" I am sure he will be able to find ways for me to improve my pass even if he doesnt like/do it himself.

11

If I were a savate instructor and someone came in and said they want to work on stand up and that they had a muay thai background, and were not interested in learning a fouette, chasse, etc because they have a muay thai background, I would ask them why do they want to take a savate class.

Seriously. I would ask them are they looking for an open workout to practice their stand up or are they looking for a stand up class. If they are looking for a class with classroom structure, they probably wouldn't fit into a savate class if they insisted on doing Muay Thai.
Its a savate class. You do savate. If its a muay thai class, you do muay thai. Period. If if is an informal, open workout, you can do what you want.

From personal experience, the biggest mistake I ever saw an instructor make was accepting a group of sambo students into a BJJ class and not laying the law down that it was a BJJ CLASS and not a SAMBO CLASS. These guys immediately started with the "Well, in Sambo we...Blah..Blah..Blah..." and everything degenerated from there. The biggest embarrassement was during a class where heelhooks were being taught and these guys (because heelhooks are illegal in sambo and they had never learned them at their old school) were totally uncooperative and disruptive.

12

jkd_guy,

Sorry, but that actually may not be the best example. NOW, you are talking about entirely different techniques, whereas before you were simply talking about the adjustment of whether a foot is raised or flat.

In your example, the instructor isn't correcting your technique, he's giving you more options. You SHOULD have more than one way to pass the guard, even if you are successful 50% of the time with a leg-on-shoulder pass, you need to learn other methods. As you face more advanced opponents, your percentage may start to drop without having other options and having them linked fluidly into your game. Now, if he were to correct hand placement, weight distribution, etc. he should be able to justify the reasons why and show you.

You are simply going to have to judge the situation for yourself. If you talk to him, explain your concern, and you think he's a good teacher, trust his judgement as he SHOULD have much more experience and wisdom than you. If not, why are you there again?

13

I'm with Zen writer on this one.

If (to use your example) you only want to work on the cartwheel pass, why would you switch to Renzo's?

If you only fight with your Right leading, why would you switch to a school that focuses on Left leading?

Please don't take those as accusatory--I don't mean them to be personally aimed. But those would be the first questions out of my mouth in those situations.

On a related note, one of the best books I ever read was Stephen Covey's "7 Habits of Highly Effective People." In it, one of the habits is "seek first to understand, and second to be understood." It's more important for learning, communication, and cooperation that a person tries to understand the other party's perspective before trying to establish his own. [Otherwise it becomes problems like ZW's sambo-bjj story]

On the occasions when I get to be a student again, (more often than people guess) I want to hear everything from my new instructor's perspective. That's what I'm paying him for! I could talk about MY perspective or what I already know without leaving the house! Why else would I be here?

I think I understand what kind of situation you're coming from, though. If I sound like I'm discounting it, I apologize. My recommendation is simply that one should listen to the new instructor, because that's why one is training with him.

Good times, though. Good times.

~TT

14

I let my guys do anything they want........

Heck, not one of my guys move exactly the same way...all of them have their "unique" style.

But you'll find the general principles and concepts in the way they move.

I encourage people to try out different things and experiment.......and when they do something totally different and it works.......then I copy it ;-)

It's not uncommon for my guys to book lessons with me just to try out something new they learned from another instructor.........if it works, then we adopt it.....if it doesn't, then we analyse why it didn't.

My guys are free to disagree with me and question what I teach - in fact, I encourage it

All in all it's a win/win situation for all.

15

Hi everyone.

Thanks for all the opinions/thoughts.

My examples are probably off because I dont want to give too much detail, since the instructor does post/read on the UG, and he has students on all the other forums here.

I started in JKD, then did some BJJ and MT. (so I kick on the toe of my supporting foot).

I am out of town for work, and I am near his school so I dropped by once. His class is informal, you can choose to work standup or ground. I choose standup, and he said that instead of pivioting on the ball, you pivoit and do everything on the heel.

Which totally threw my kick out of wack...felt unnatural etc.

Thats what made me think of starting this thread.

I want to join his school, NOT to learn his style's technique, but to learn FROM him...that doesnt make sense does it? lol.

He has a lot of REAL world experience, and he is a very good fighter, so I would like to learn his experience and apply it to my techniques...you know?

Like (this might be basic for you guys but new to me) I saw him working the clinch with his student, and he went for a knee, the student blocked it, but he stopped and told the student "Good block, but you leaned forward to block, that opens you up for the headbutt, you need to do this instead...."

I dont want him to teach me his style, I want him to teach me how to fight.

I have decent speed, good power on pads, but in a real world situation, I believe I would freeze or fall apart, but I think learning from him, I would be more prepared for a real world confrontation.

I think I just need to drop by next week and talk to him. The problem is...he is very proud of his style, I think he is 1 of a few qualified ppl in the US to teach it. (he would be like a BJJ black belt back in the early 90s, very few ppl like him)

Thanks!

16

  1. Any man who can't handle honest, direct inquiry is not worth talking to in the first place, regardless of his style and it's merits. My advice on this aspect is to simply and plainly talk to him (privately, not in front of others). Don't be a know-it-all or anything, just ask questions that directly show what tyou want to find out. Remember, the guy is a human being first, and a martial arts guy second, so you aught to be able to talk to the guy without fear. And if he's the type that somehow needs to make you feel uncomfortable, or that he doesn't want to hear your questions (assuming you are being humble and direct), then I wouldn't mark him as being an ideal teacher anyway, not for the long-term at least.

  2. You kind of set yourself up for this, jkd_guy:

"I dont want him to teach me his style, I want him to teach me how to fight."

  • well, theoretically, if he's there to teach people how to fight, then that means he's teaching his style - if not, he's wasting both his, and your, potential by teaching only certain aspects of his knowledge.

"I have decent speed, good power on pads, but in a real world situation, I believe I would freeze or fall apart, but I think learning from him, I would be more prepared for a real world confrontation."

  • well, and this isn't meant as an insult, but what does it say about the style(s) you're currently in if you think you'll fall apart during a live confrontation? From what I can tell of you so far, I think you probably should at least give this guy a try - if worse comes to worse, you'll learn how to avoid schools that don't work for you - or, you'll have found one of those hidden gems (instructors) that are great and so you stick with him.

And I suppose the final comment I have to make is that, if you're that sure that he can teach you what you really want to know about fighting, why continue spending your time in your current pursuits, why not just sign up with him and learn his methods and make them your own?

(better yet, why not study his style, analyze it, compare it to what you know already, and find ways to improve your overall fighting capability by testing and integrating what works best for you from all your styles studied thus far)

Ok, one last thing - trust your instincts about this guy, if he feels off, then he probably is off, and therefore tyou're better off without. But if he appeals to you on a personal level, as well as a "professional" level, then he's your guy. Personally, I couldn't put up with an instructor who's too high and mighty to talk to me plainly. As long as you're aware and mindful not to embarrass him, or to draw him into a debate forcing him to defend his style's purpose, then I suppose you'll have a chance at a good conversation, though personally I like rayfloro's mentality on this as it shows that he fosters students with inquisitive minds that are unafraid to rock the boat a little, but with respect - that's the key.

17

Good posts by both Ray and Frost.

Ray's approach is an ideal JKD environment. In our school we teach the specific methods of different styles, but allow the student to choose how and what they will apply.

We foster a sense of experimentation through just simply playing the game. That's the only way that they will find out what works best for them.

But again, if they are in a Muay Thai class, then you must do everything to the letter of Muay Thai. So, our JKD class is different than say a Muay Thai or Savate class.

Frost has some really good advice.