No, simpler than that.
YOU guys have Neil Adams.
Think about that a moment.
EVERYONE in England is WELL aware of what can be done down there; we are far less so over here.
Sadly the play of the game is ruled by the way the ref's enforce the rules.
No, simpler than that.
I recieved a BB in judo while I was stationed in Korea.
I trained at the Korean Yudo College for a time, and had the great opportunity to train in Japan. I can tell you, in no uncertain terms, that neither (the great) Kashiwazaki nor Neil Adams could last more then a few seconds on the ground with a solid BJJ/GJJ purple belt. Not now, not in the their prime, not ever.
The day GJJ was introduced to the world, judo/Yudo/Sambo Ne-waza became antiquated and obsolete.
I was 47 and didn't hesitate to start BJJ after I witnessed about 20 Judo Black Belts in Japan get submitted with ease at the first Gracie Seminar.
Oh, and by the way. There were MANY high ranking Kodokan fighter there, and they all were defeated.
Time you faced the truth.
Y A W N....
I simply do not believe you.
My green belts have defeated "solid" blue belts under Rorion and Royce Gracie.
Rorion Gracie himself was not only unable to submit John Saylor, but he could not escape his pins.
Rorion and Royce Gracie went to Neil Adams to learn better ways to apply arm bars.
So, as I said, I do not believe you at all.
PLEASE take your silly comments to another site that has the time for them.
hypothetically, in a "newaza only" tournament (coz bjj
concedes that judo & wrestling have better throws &
takedowns), would you bet money on the current best
"newaza" judo players, if they go up against the
current bjj world champions? in this "newaza" tourny,
which judo players do you think could win against the
current world champions, in the lighter to heavier
i only ask this, because you mentioned Neil Adams, Kashiwazaki, and Yamashita who you said are not in
their primes anymore. i just assumed that if judo
newaza is very good, then judo doesn't need to rely on
the reputations of former competitors, but can rely on
the current crop.
btw, i'm not saying judo newaza is bad; i'm just
taking the other side in this argument, coz i'm
interested in your response, since you defend judo. :)
btw, thanks for your defense sprays post; i always
wanted to know about them, since they're not too
popular in my country.
The british judoka Neil Adams tapped out Royce Gracie when he was challenged by Royce, and as a result Royce and Rorion travelled thousands of miles to go to one of Neil's seminars on juji gatame,
Royce proudly said this himself. I respect Royce more for this as it shows he is willing to learn.
Ask Royce yourself.
Mtripp, Of course you don't believe me. Then you would have to admit you are wrong and I don't believe you are capable of that.
John Saylor was tapped by Rorion on three seperate occasions. I have seen the tape.
In fact, I have sen many tapes where the Gracies have beaten high ranking martial artists, but Rorion decided not to make them public out of respect.
Neil Adams has never submitted Royce, if he did, HE would be one of the richest martial artists in the world and NOT the Gracie family.
As it stands now, Neil Adams is an obscure figure in the martial arts world, known only to hardcore judo practioners. News of Royce losing the Gracie challenge to an English judo champion would have been heard far and wide. Think about it.
As for your green belts beating any competent BJJ player. I would love to see that. Again, I was there when the Gracies beat everyone at the seminar in Japan. I walked in a doubter and came out a believer.
Go away, troll. bother the people in the wrestling folder.
Joe Moreira has trained with many Gracies as well with many Judokas including George Medhi in Rio and Isao Okano in Japan. He says there was no difference between Judo Ne-waza and Bjj. Apparently the Judo guys he trained with were just as good as the Bjj guys he trained with.
So, I like Mark, don't believe you. You've never trained with Kashiwazaki or Neil Adams. So how can you make the comparison?
Furthermore how is it that one of the top-Judo teacher in Brazil (George Medhi) can publicly state that Bjj is derived from Judo, openly express his dislike for the Gracie, teach a ton of Bjj fighters (Bustamente, Sperry, both Berhing brothers and others) and Gracies (Carlson jr, Rickson, and others) Judo and yet have NOT ONE Bjj person, Gracie or otherwise come out and say he is wrong?
I have yet to hear Helio, Rorion or any other Gracie public dispute what Geore Medhi says about Bjj or the Gracies. And he is right there in Rio the heartland of Bjj!
In fact according to the articles on the Global Websight concerning Bjj, many Bjj guys feel Medhi created Bjj.
You said in your post you have the tapes of Rorion tapping Saylor. I say you are a LIAR.
17195 Silver Parkway #126
Fenton, MI 48430
You send me a tape showing Rorion Gracie tapping out John Saylor and I will QUIT this forum forever.
Until you send me the tape, I will delete EVERY post you make.
Time to see who is telling the truth....
ROYCE HIMSELF TOLD HIS STUDENTS ABOUT HIS SPARRING WITH NEIL>
It is a fact!!!!
A big thing wasnt made of it because it wasnt a big deal. Royce was caught with juji gatame, and then the gracies went to one of Neils seminars on juji gatame.
Neil doesnt make videos...''Neil in action''. He already earnt all the respect as a fighter he would ever want.
ASk ROYCE, EMAIL HIM. It is a well known fact in europe. No Neil didnt go to black belt magazine, about it. He just made friends with Royce, and their still good friends.
How can you say it not true, IVE HEARD HIM AND HIS STUDENTS TALK ABOUT IT!!!!
Does it mean Neils better..answer..I dont care, Im just stating a fact.
This discussion of "who tapped who" and "who you think can tap who" is just silly. No one is unbeatable and everyone can argue their opinions until the end of time.
By the way, M.G., Joe said that when he trained in Japan (about 20 years ago), it was very common for judoka to pull opponent's to the guard right away from standing. He said that tactic was not considered illegal or something that a judoka would get penalized for (does anyone know when constantly pulling guard began to be penalized?). Joe said that the spread of Olympic judo and the numerous rules changes over the years simply ruined the groundwork of judo, especially here in the US. He said that the judo groundwork he sees now in the US is nothing like what he saw in Japan 20 years ago.
No offense, but you're wasting on those guys again. Please put your time to better use. Judo needs you, not the Camarillo's. The Camarillo's need Judo. If I'm not mistaken hasn't Dave been more successful(to this point)in BJJ? I really wish they would just come out and say "Judo is taught poorly here in the U.S.", but instead they continue to disparage Judo as a whole.
Why in a Judo tournament if I get caught in Juji gatame would I want to stack UNLESS I was 100% certain I was going to be able to go straight for a pin or submission. Trust me if you don't get the pin or submission right away YOU WILL BE STOOD UP. I'm not saying that I agree with that, but it is fact. Sport/Olympic Judo is different than when I even first started Judo as a young man. The Camarillo's will never see that certain rules in Olympic Judo will not allow you a lot of time on the mat.
I guess I do have a question for you, Coach. Why is it that when I live in High Wycombe, England that the Newaza time in those tournaments was a lot longer than anywhere I've competed in the U.S.? Is it back to that old "regional rules" rule situation?
what he is saying about judo true???
like judo gives bad habit for bjj....
Keep in mind that what the Camarillo brothers say is simply their opinion. What they say maybe true for them based upon their own experiences, however, does not mean that it is a fact that holds true for everyone else's experiences. I think if you look at it that way, you can avoid the arguements that resulted from it in the past.
In regards to what they say about judo, it is correct that sport judo does produce bad habits for BJJ. The same could be said that sport BJJ produces bad habits for judo. Sport judo and sport BJJ and 2 different sports with different rules and strategies.
Hi Luke!!! long time no see!!!!!!
From Faxia, moved to keep the rebuttal together:
I have to agree fully will Bolo and MTripp. Also, keep in mind that the people who develop bad habits from doing sport Judo (like turtling) are usually those who are doing Judo purely for sport competition. I, for one, train in Judo for many reason, and winning shiai isn't one of them (at least not a primary one), so I don't do things like assume the turtle in my training (unless it really is the best option, which is to say almost never). In short, sport Judo will only give you these bad habits if you let it, and if you do let it, it probably means you are training mainly to compete in sport Judo, in which case habits like the turtle aren't as bad to you. This doesn't mean that everyone who does Judo mainly because they want to win IJF-rules shiai turtles all the time (altho many do, unless they're newaza specialists), just that almost no Judoka (that I've met) who aren't training just for shiai, turtle consistently. Most realize that the guard (for instance) is almost always a better place to be than the turtle, those who turtle etc. do it simply because they just want to compete in a kind of tournament where it is often an effective strategy, and aren't as worried about using their Judo in other applications (like the street or BJJ or submission tournaments). Note that every Sensei I have ever trained with has said that the turtle is a very bad place to be, and that if you do end up there you should try to improve your position (by sitting out to the guard, perhaps) immediately. Note also that I would put absolutely no weight on anything said by Dan or Dave Camarillo.
"Note also that I would put absolutely no weight on anything said by Dan or Dave Camarillo."
Now, I REALLY disagree with this.
I have great respect for both of them. I just disagree with the interview and the points made there.
In as much as that interview is NOT going to go away, then I have no choice but to make sure my rebuttal doesn't either.
But BOTH sides have had their say on this. There is nothing to add nor is anyones core opinion going to be changed.
So HERE is where this ends....
Moreover, and I will delete this AGAIN later today...
...if this comes up again I WILL repost my rebuttal to the interview.
LOTS of people didn't like that one, so lets heed my warning....
Then again, this is the third time this has been reposted, and that is all they give the ball players...